Raven - Song in Progress

[Paulieworld]

Even several days later, I hear this in my head. I don’t remember the words, but the melody persists. It sounds like you changed the instrumentation. I think it prefer the original, but that’s just me. Someone mentioned having a real singer. The AI voice sounds nice, but it’s AI. Probably not something a true bluegrass band would do. I’ll check back in a few days. This is a really good song.

You have really generated a lively discussion!

 

[Reid Rosefelt]

I like your song, David. I think it's well constructed and tells a good story. You set up your story very well from the first words and then it takes you someplace. I like the melody and the lyrics.

Structurally it is five verses and two instrumentals, although the melody does change enough in the last two lines, that some might see them as a chorus, or at least a refrain or B-part. Have you considered making a different section? A bridge, with a new melody and stepping away from the story?

Secondly, I believe economy to be a virtue, particularly when most people listen to songs online and are impatient. Do you need both instrumentals? Could you tell your story with less than five verses? It is my belief that every second you cut, more people will listen to the end. I always get very defensive with my songs when I decide whether to cut them. I don't want to cut anything, particularly verses that took me weeks to complete. But every time I go back at my songs saying something has to go, they improve. When I have to tell my story compressed into less verses, more of the lyrics have my best lines, and it often improves in ways that surprise me.

But that's me. And I firmly believe that this song is an expression of what you want it to be. Well done!

 

[David Cuny]

I really like the flow and progression of the narrative now,...

Thanks!

If commenting on music in a forum made me feel uncomfortable, commenting on lyrics makes me squirm 100 times more .

Thanks again!

If this helps, I think of this less as "creativity" and more "communication".

Unlike a lot of songs that tell a personal story, this one carries a lot of detail that has to be communicated clearly in order for it to make sense. It's almost a mini book report.

So I appreciate your caution, but again: don't worry, you're good.

Some of my comments will no doubt seem ultra nitpicky...

And that's why they should be here!

The right solution to songwriting issues should seem obvious in retrospect. But the process of getting to that simple solution is often messy and has a lot of false starts.

Doing this over the internet is doubly so!

Okay, enough preamble. Let's dive in...

Verse 1

• I would swap "these" in the 1st line with "the" in the 3rd line. No compelling reason, I just think it would sound better and would somehow make slightly better sense. (Before you roll your eyes and report this post as abuse, please know this is my most nitpickiest and least significant comment. Things should get better from here...)

It's good to see I'm not the only person who changes little stuff like this "because it sounds better." I'll often swap things like this in and out to see what works best.

"they've long since gone away"

• This line creates a logical thorn ...

I agree - this is something that I've struggled with.

In this song, "everyone" should refer to the narrator's peers, instead of being understood as the entire town.

The town has been abandoned by the coal companies, and people are dealing with that impact. Since the better paying jobs relied on coal mining, there's not really anything left to replace it.

Those who can leave - typically younger people - have generally left. That leaves those who can't leave for whatever reason dealing with low paying jobs and deepening poverty.

The answer to "how has she survived" is "not well", which is why she knows she's got to leave.

All these questions you've raised have answers, just not within the song.

That raises the obvious question: should be answered in the narrative, or should the lyrics be changed so the questions aren't raised in the first place.

The answer is: I don't know yet.

"all these damned vultures stripped us to the bone"

Yes, this is a problem. To some extent, they are still around, in that they still own the mines they aren't using. I was thinking that "these" makes it more present, even though they've left.

"Corporate vultures" might be a better solution. An idiom would be nice, but this solution is better than using a pronoun.

"bought up the land and drank it dry"

• "drank" seems a little too polite. This verse is expressing bitterness and anger, so a stronger term, such as "bled," seems more fitting to me.

This is just sloppiness on my part. The rhyming word was "dry", and the verb I used didn't match with drinking, so I picked "drank" as the easy way out. I wanted to go with "sucked", but it was hard to make out. "Bled" is a good word, but might be heard as "let".

Verse 3

• Tonally, ...

A narrative problem is there are multiple entities:

• Coal miners
• Coal mining companies
• Electricity producers
• Electricity consumers

There aren't just separate entities from a technical view, but from a narrative view as well. That is, the coal miners make these distinctions.

The primary consumer of Appalachian coal was the electric companies. But with the advent of fracking, natural gas became an inexpensive replacement for coal.

As a result being able to frack natural gas cheaply, production of coal was abandoned as not being cost effective. That's what the "depreciate" line is about. Not only was coal production abandoned, but coal burning electrical plants were allowed to age out and be replaced by natural gas plants.

How this was viewed by people in the town varied. In one town, a solar company offered to come in, offering jobs at better pay than the coal mining companies. They were rebuffed and ended up going to a different state.

Some people blamed the mining companies, and others the electrical companies. Others blamed the electricity consumers themselves, who felt that referring to natural gas as "clean" was a slap in the face, since the country was happy to use coal when it was convenient.

The bottom line is that it sounds like these got muddied up in the lyrics.

• "cheap" is used in the 1st line and "cheaper" in the 3rd line. I'd change one of them.

Ooops.

"but fracking gas is cheaper and they don't care what they burn"

I think the original line was along the lines of:

"but fracking gas is cheaper than mining coal"

which somewhat clarified things. The line:

"they don't care what they burn"

is intended to refer to producers of electricity, but... pronouns.

That is, the electric companies burn natural gas to generate power instead of burning coal.

Either way, the lyric still needs work.

"depreciate and let it go"

Agreed. I'll go with "write it off" or just rewrite it entirely.

Verse 4
"cold september woke me from my sleep"

Yeah, this is where those "vestigial tails" come into play. The same problem with the raven. Is it worth the setup?

I justified keeping it because the prior verses were a bunch of information and pretty abstract. I wanted to bring in some level of detail so there was a segue from the data dump into "That brings us to right now..." with a feeling of place and time.

But it is a problem.

• "hot" is not my favoriate adjective here...

It was intended to provide a contrast with the "cold" in the prior verse.

Of course, if that line is changed, leave this in would make no sense at all.

Alright, like I said at the beginning, ...

Well, at least I'm listening.

Besides, a lot of value in doing this sort of thing in forums is when someone who wasn't part of the conversation runs across it later.

Thanks!

 

[David Cuny]

I like your song, David. I think it's well constructed and tells a good story. You set up your story very well from the first words and then it takes you someplace. I like the melody and the lyrics.

Thanks!

Structurally it is five verses and two instrumentals, although the melody does change enough in the last two lines, that some might see them as a chorus, or at least a refrain or B-part. Have you considered making a different section? A bridge, with a new melody and stepping away from the story?

You're right, that's a refrain and not a chorus.

I've considered a bridge, but it seems long as it is. However (as you mention below) it would make sense to drop an instrumental.

Secondly, I believe economy to be a virtue, particularly when most people listen to songs online and are impatient.

Heh. This is exactly why I often won't put in an instrumental, or add a fade at the end so people can tune out.

When this had less verses, two instrumentals made sense.

Well, honestly there were two because it was a bit too short in the original incarnation, and I tried to get away with less verses by padding it out.

Since then, it's added a verse and no longer needs to be padded out.

There also didn't seem to be anything to say in the bridge. However, if I moved some of the "Cold November..." section to the bridge, it might make sense there. I could use that to set up some sort of time transition from the retrospective first verses to the more personal end verses.

I always get very defensive with my songs when I decide whether to cut them. I don't want to cut anything, particularly verses that took me weeks to complete. But every time I go back at my songs saying something has to go, they improve. When I have to tell my story compressed into less verses, more of the lyrics have my best lines, and it often improves in ways that surprise me.

Yes, I'm with you there!

But that's me. And I firmly believe that this song is an expression of what you want it to be. Well done!

Thanks, but I feel I'm a long way from the finish line on this.

And just wait until we get to the mixing stage again!

 

[Nekujak]

Unlike a lot of songs that tell a personal story, this one carries a lot of detail that has to be communicated clearly in order for it to make sense. It's almost a mini book report.

FWIW, I refer to these as "documentary songs" - songs that tell stories rooted in the physical world, describing people, places, and events. At the opposite end of the spectrum are what I call "poetic songs" - songs that use creative metaphors, fanciful imagery, and poetic language to convey intangibles like feelings, impressions, and emotions.

Of course, songs can contain both aspects, but I view Raven as primarily a documentary song, so yes, it's as you say, more like a book report. But still, it's your creative effort that built it, and I don't want to tread too heavily on that.

The answer to "how has she survived" is "not well", which is why she knows she's got to leave.

Maybe just one or two lines that allude to her struggles and hardships might be all that's needed. But given how the song is currently structured, it might be easier to simply compress the time between events. IMHO, the events are what's most important and what listeners will come away with. Whether a lot of time passed between them or not, is a more subtle detail.

"Bled" is a good word, but might be heard as "let".

Whether "bled" ends up being the right word or not, I personally wouldn't sacrifice any phrase that conveys the correct meaning for fear that the lyric might be misheard. A competent singer can make just about any lyric properly understood. Besides, the history of popular music is rife with dozens, probably hundreds, of songs that contain famously misheard lyrics. It never hurt the songs, and no one ever blamed the songwriter

A narrative problem is there are multiple entities:

• Coal miners
• Coal mining companies
• Electricity producers
• Electricity consumers

There aren't just seperate entities from a technical view, but from a narrative view as well. That is, the coal miners make these distinctions.

This is a lot of detail to unpack and make clear within one short verse. Your current attempt is actually pretty good, especially now that you've explained all the interrelationships. IMHO, this could really be the topic of its own dedicated song.

Personally, I would be mindful of not straying too far from the singer's experiences and feelings. This may require glossing over and/or simplifying a lot of the minutiae concerning all the external dynamics and reducing them to just the inflection points in her life. Not an easy task by any means, but if done right, the result should be more engaging for the listener.

Besides, a lot of value in doing this sort of thing in forums is when someone who wasn't part of the conversation runs across it later.

I'm really glad you mentioned this. Over on VI-C, folks occasionally DM me after reading my trailer-related posts, asking me to review their attempts at trailer music. I always steer them to post their music in the forums, where I and others will gladly offer feedback. This way, the entire VI-C community can benefit from the exchange of information.

The public sharing of knowledge is what makes forums so valuable. So good on you for leveraging this forum to it's fullest advantage