Down That Long Road (was "Raven") - Song in Progress

[David Cuny]

When it comes to songwriting, I'm not really a collaborative sort of person. I'll recognize that other people's ideas are valid and even better than my own, but I'll usually stubbornly cling to my words because there was a reason I chose them instead of other words.

This isn't a great attitude for collaboration.

But I'm going to do this as an experiment anyway.

At the point where you've completed the recording, it's a bit late to go back and make changes. That's great for learning what to do next time, but perhaps less useful for the song you've just done.

So when does it make sense to ask for feedback?

Normally, I've got my own criteria that I hope my songs have - musical, enjoyable, no huge WTF moments.

Because I use synth voices, it's easy to go back and make changes to lyrics. And I'll fiddle with the mix, even long after I've posted a song.

This song is my sacrificial lamb, so to speak. I've started working on a bluegrass song, and it's in the roughest of rough state right now. Most of the lyrics are just "la", and the words that aren't "la" are just dummy lyrics waiting to be rewritten. Or maybe I'll keep them. I'm in the fence about whether this should be a murder ballad (sort of undercut by the cheerful major chorus), a gospel song, or something altogether different.

Usually I'll just sit at the computer, playing the melody over an over again, trying to figure out what this voice with these notes is trying to say. I'll throw words at it until something feels right. It's a painful process, but it eventually works.

OK, details about the song and what I'm trying to do:

The chords are pretty bog standard. The verses are in a minor key, and the chorus in a major key for contrast. I've put an instrumental in for one of the verses, although I'm not sure if it should replace verse 2 or verse 3. It just sort of fades out because I haven't gotten that far into it yet.

Yes, the verse and chorus have the same final cadence. Feel free to tell me this is a terrible idea.

I'll make changes to the melody as lyrics are added, so the words feel natural to the setting. I'll also tro to make sure there aren't too many of the same rhythms in the song, as that gets tiring - even in a short song.

The backing was done in Band in a Box, with no attempt to mix or balance anything. It's a mono backing track that will be replaced and properly mixed at some point. So don't get too hung up on it.

The vocal is the SynthesizerV voice Sheena 2. It's likely that there will be harmonies, but I usually don't start on them until I've got the lyrics nailed down.

The fiddle solo is provisional. It was created by exporting MIDI from SynthV into ACE Studio, and rendering it using the AI Gabriele Boschi violin. It's likely that I'll end up piecing something together from BiaB because it's got lots of good fiddle parts, but I might go the VSTi route, or even play something on my EWI.

Note: Because the file is too large to upload, I'm posting the link to the Soundcloud version. However, I'll be updating it on a regular basis, so apologies that this will get out of sync with the discussion:



What sort of feedback am I looking for at this point? The main questions are usually Is this good enough to go forward with? and Am I accidentally borrowing too much from someone else's song?

But feel free to critique whatever you want. After all, it's your forum. Let's find out how this works. Just don't ask for songwriting credit. I'm not a pro songwriter anyway.

And to be preemptive... yes, a raven is different from a crow.

 

[Nekujak]

David, I haven't listened to your in-progress song yet... on purpose. Since you're asking for input on the merits of the writing and arrangement, I want my first listen to be framed in the proper context. And by that I mean: what is your goal with this song?

When I write songs for clients, there is always a goal. I'm given a brief and/or reference track(s) that inform all my writing and production decisions. Armed with this information, it's easy to assess whether or not I'm headed in the right direction.

Without a clearly defined goal for your song, it's impossible for me to contribute anything useful beyond my personal preferences, which are really not very relevant, and amount to nothing more than an inconsequential thumbs-up or down from me.

Thus, I never comment on people's music when they post in forums because anything I say is going to be naturally skewed by my own personal tastes and preferences, which have no bearing on someone's personal artistic vision and creativity. Music is art - art is subjective - and therefore music is subjective. Who am I to tell someone how they should write their song?

I firmly believe everyone is entitled to express their own personal, unbridled, and unencumbered creativity - that's what makes art interesting. I love Neil Young's music because his unique creative vision touches me deeply. I'd hate it if Neil came to me and asked for my opinion on how he should write a song - that would completely ruin my appreciation of his music. I just want to hear what Neil has to say.

With that out of the way... I do comment on music posts if someone asks very specific technical questions that I feel qualified to answer. For example on VI-C, I will often weigh in when someone posts a piece asking if it makes good trailer music, because I have a fair amount of experience writing for trailers, and there are some very specific and clearly defined elements that trailer tracks are expected to possess. This is an objective evaluation that I'm perfectly comfortable providing.

Without any context about what you're trying to achieve, anything I say will simply reflect how I might've written the song, and will likely have no relevance to what you're trying to express through your own creative instincts. You yourself, stated you don't know if this should be a murder ballad, gospel song, or something else, so how can I posssibly weigh in without knowing where you're headed?

So here's a crazy idea for a possible way forward... what if you wrote a brief describing what you're trying to accomplish/express with this song? That would provide the proper context to enable me, and anyone else, to give a personal evaluation of how well I think your song meets your stated goal(s). Assuming I possess the relevant expertise.

Writing a brief may sound ridiculous in this situation - after all, I've certainly never written a brief for one of my own personal songs But since you're exposing your work for public comment, something along the lines of a brief, or simply some clearly stated goals, would provide much needed context, and would likely yield feedback that's more meaningful and useful to you.

Hope some of that makes some sense!

P.S. And of course, feel free to ignore all of the above. This is your song and your creative journey - you should pursue it however you desire. My ramblings are just an explanation of what would potentially help me make a relevant contribution. And that's simply based on where I draw my own line - I'm sure other folks approach it differently.

 

[David Cuny]

David, I haven't listened to your in-progress song yet... on purpose. Since you're asking for input on the merits of the writing and arrangement, I want my first listen to be framed in the proper context. And by that I mean: what is your goal with this song?

That's a great question!

Simply put, I want it to work as a competent song. It should have a melody that's pleasant to listen to - not all skips, and not all the same two notes, with enough variety that it doesn't quickly bore the ear.

The lyrics should be aligned with feel of the song. They should have an understandable point of view, with each verse adding something rather than restating the same thing. The verses should support the idea in the chorus.

It should hopefully give some sort of feeling when listening to it, instead of coming across as writing exercise.

Unfortunately, there really isn't enough of the song in place to make any of those determinations.

Without a clearly defined goal for your song, it's impossible for me to contribute anything useful beyond my personal preferences, which are really not very relevant, and amount to nothing more than an inconsequential thumbs-up or down from me.

Personal preference is fine. Your personal preference may be "Get back to me when you've got some lyrics."

Thus, I never comment on people's music when they post in forums because anything I say is going to be naturally skewed by my own personal tastes and preferences, which have no bearing on someone's personal artistic vision and creativity. Music is art - art is subjective - and therefore music is subjective. Who am I to tell someone how they should write their song?

That's a great attitude, and one I heartily endorse.

But I'm not asking you how I should write a song. I'm asking you how you feel about the song. Does it work for you? And if not, can you articulate why?

Because the part of the song that I can't hear is how other people hear the song.

Think of music as a tool for communication. Not that I've got any deep messages I'm trying to get across. But I'm trying to write things in a way where what I'm trying to communicate is coming across well. So if the language is clunky, or the melody distracting, or whatever, that's useful.

I can always choose not to use it. But it's like listening to a recording of yourself singing. You know what you think people are going to hear. Feedback tells you if that's what they actually hear.

I firmly believe everyone is entitled to express their own personal, unbridled, and unencumbered creativity - that's what makes art interesting. I love Neil Young's music because his unique creative vision touches me deeply. I'd hate it if Neil came to me and asked for my opinion on how he should write a song - that would completely ruin my appreciation of his music. I just want to hear what Neil has to say.

100%. Especially with Neil Young.

So here's a crazy idea for a possible way forward... what if you wrote a brief describing what you're trying to accomplish/express with this song? That would provide the proper context to enable me, and anyone else, to give a personal evaluation of how well I think your song meets your stated goal(s). Assuming I possess the relevant expertise.

A brief is an excellent idea. The problem with how I approach lyrics is that it doesn't lend itself well to that. I create an arrangement, try to find lyrics that fit, and then reconstruct the arrangement around those lyrics. It's the bass-ackwards journey of discovery.

But I'm also trying to figure out what a conversation about songs looks like. More specifically, what it looks like on this songwriter forum.

For example, I made some comments on Reid's song the other day. But I don't know that he was looking for any input (especially from me) or what would be appropriate. There aren't enough examples of these conversations for me to know what the norms are.

So this conversation is a great start.

I'll try to get some lyrics in place, so there's something to talk about.

Thanks!

 

[Nekujak]

Simply put, I want it to work as a competent song. It should have a melody that's pleasant to listen to - not all skips, and not all the same two notes, with enough variety that it doesn't quickly bore the ear.

The lyrics should be aligned with feel of the song. They should have an understandable point of view, with each verse adding something rather than restating the same thing. The verses should support the idea in the chorus.

It should hopefully give some sort of feeling when listening to it, instead of coming across as writing exercise.

I don't consider these to be goals, but simply a given. Not trying to be snarky in any way, it's just that with every song we write, we always want to the lyrics to communicate, the melody to be interesting, and the music engaging. It's the very art and craft of songwriting.

For me, a goal is something more directional like, "An upbeat country song with traditional instruments that's humorous and evokes a nostalgic feeling," or "A West Coast hip-hop jam with a catchy hook and a male rapper talking about good times growing up in the hood."

The details of how the lyrics, melody, and music are crafted in service of the stated goal is the "art" part, and is highly subjective and personal. There's no one right answer, which is why I'm always loathe to offer opinions in this area, unless it's of a technical nature.

This reminds me of a funny story...

I met my wife-to-be, Roberta, when I hired her to produce my first CD. One of the first orders of business was to figure out which of my songs were worthy of recording, so I had Roberta come to my next gig, gave her a copy of my set list, and asked her to rate each song on a scale of 1-10, so we could separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak.

My set was made up of all originals, except every 3 or 4 songs, I'd throw in a cover just to make sure the audience was still along for the ride.

So after the show, I looked at Roberta's marked up set list and was rather surprised to see that she rated most of the songs 7 or higher, with one glaring exception. One of the covers I performed was "Waiting On A Friend" by the Rolling Stones. I love that song, the crowd loved that song, and it always went over well. However being more of a jazzer than a rocker, Roberta was completely unfamiliar with it and thought it was one of my originals. So she not only gave it a "4", but in the margin wrote: "Lyrics need work!"

When I saw that, I exclaimed, "But it's a hit song by the Stones!" to which she replied, "I don't care, it sucks." To this day, we still laugh about that

So my point is, when it comes to art, everyone has an opinion and there's no definitive correct answer. So you might as well just follow your instincts and do what feels right to you.

But I'm not asking you how I should write a song. I'm asking you how you feel about the song. Does it work for you? And if not, can you articulate why?

Because the part of the song that I can't hear is how other people hear the song.

Fair enough, but if five different people give you five differing opinions, then what?

And even if five people are in agreement, who's to say they're the "right" five people? In my story above, I ultimately disregarded Roberta's opinion about the Stones song because she was looking through a lens that wasn't really relevant for that type of song.

But I'm also trying to figure out what a conversation about songs looks like. More specifically, what it looks like on this songwriter forum.

I think that's a noble goal, and I hope I haven't come off as argumentative. If anything, I might be playing a little bit of a devil's advocate, because I tend to be suspicious of forum opinions, especially when it comes to people's creative expression.

All information on forums is presented with equal weight, and it's so easy to opine with apparent authority, but we don't really know who's actually behind the opinions, how knowledgeable they are, or what kind of experience and background they have. So I'm naturally skeptical about soliciting input in this type of environment.

But I do think it's definitely worth exploring the kinds of songwriting conversations we can have around here, and I applaud you for offering up your song as a sacrificial lamb

Curious to see where this all goes...

 

[David Cuny]

I don't consider these to be goals, but simply a given. Not trying to be snarky in any way, it's just that with every song we write, we always want to the lyrics to communicate, the melody to be interesting, and the music engaging. It's the very art and craft of songwriting.

That's right. I set a low, low bar.

For me, a goal is something more directional like, "An upbeat country song with traditional instruments that's humorous and evokes a nostalgic feeling," or "A West Coast hip-hop jam with a catchy hook and a male rapper talking about good times growing up in the hood."

I've got a general goal of "A traditional bluegrass song using classic archetypes evoking a sense of loss in the verses, but despite that - or because of that - a stoic optimism in the chorus."

This reminds me of a funny story...

Ha!

So my point is, when it comes to art, everyone has an opinion and there's no definitive correct answer. So you might as well just follow your instincts and do what feels right to you.

Oh, for sure I'll do that.

And even if five people are in agreement, who's to say they're the "right" five people? In my story above, I ultimately disregarded Roberta's opinion about the Stones song because she was looking through a lens that wasn't really relevant for that type of song.

The thing I think about this group is that they're more self aware. We know the futility of asking for opinions, when the true heart of the write comes from the author, not the critics.

But we do it anyway, despite that.

I think that's a noble goal, and I hope I haven't come off as argumentative. If anything, I might be playing a little bit of a devil's advocate, because I tend to be suspicious of forum opinions, especially when it comes to people's creative expression.

As you rightly should be! Especially from people like me, who are more than happy to share their opinions, but have little to show for it.

All information on forums is presented with equal weight, and it's so easy to opine with apparent authority, but we don't really know who's actually behind the opinions, how knowledgeable they are, or what kind of experience and background they have. So I'm naturally skeptical about soliciting input in this type of environment.

Agreed.

To be transparent, I'm an amateur with no illusions of competing with anyone except myself.

But I do think it's definitely worth exploring the kinds of songwriting conversations we can have around here, and I applaud you for offering up your song as a sacrificial lamb

Curious to see where this all goes...

As am I!

Thanks again!

 

[Paulieworld]

I don't have much time this morning, but I wanted to weight in a little bit. I was pleasantly surprised to hear bluegrass. I don't hear many others doing that in this dark digital world. It's a nice change of pace and I like it. If you hadn't mention about mono, I probably wouldn't have noticed. I recently read something by George Martin on the subject. He thought that most of the Beatles early work is best enjoyed in mono. Your track sounds like a real band recorded in a studio with an overhead mic. I can hear all of the instruments just fine, and they do a good job of supporting the singer without getting in the way. You might want to consider keeping it as-is. Just my two cents.

The singer's voice reminds me of Becky, a singer that I worked with many decades ago. Hard to believe she is AI. I like the lyrics that you have, so far. I also like the "la la" parts. I actually found myself singing along with those. It's a very pleasant and memorable melody that's still in my head this morning. Maybe keep a few of those, too?

I hope you keep going with this. I will check in from time to time. I stopped by your SoundCloud page, but didn't have time to listen. I'll come back this weekend. I like some of the titles and they have piqued my interest.

Regarding comments on "Space Team Omega", I was just looking for general impressions. There are 3 things about it that bug me, and I was wondering if anybody else heard them.

1. The opening theme is clearly "inspired" by the original Star Trek theme. (Translate... rip off) It was intentional at the time, and seemed appropriate for an outer space TV show. In hindsight, I probably could have come up with something a bit more original.

2. The French Horn in the opening theme drops below the normal range for that instrument. It doesn't sound bad, but it doesn't sound quite right. I have the MIDI data and could easily fix it... some day.

3. At around 3:05, the opening theme repeats itself, but comes in a few seconds too early. It was supposed to support a "happy ending", but starts in the middle of a meteor shower. We discussed fixing this, but both agreed... nah. Too much work.

Anyway, my coworkers are starting to roll in and make demands. Time to sign off.

Have a good one!

 

[Tim Nash]

I did all my thinking about how to write songs 50 years ago (just kidding, it was 40). If I have any thoughts at all now it's I don't want to sound like anyone else, I gotta be me. And, don't repeat myself. Create something new and different each time. I'm just the conduit for whatever the universe wants me to create at that moment. I write for an audience of one, me.
I've never looked at songwriting as a set of rules. To me it's a process of discovery. Explore until you find something of value. It may end up being a song everyone likes, or not. As long as I like it that's all that matters.

 

[David Cuny]

Just some thinking out loud. Well, technically typing onto a post.

Since I'm not actually from Appalachia, I figured I'd do a bit of research to see if my assumptions about the person I'm writing about remotely resembled reality. To be sure, poverty remains an issue, but there are challenges unique to that region that I wasn't really aware of:

In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, a large number of Appalachians sold their rights to land and minerals, leading to a massive disparity in ownership and control of the land. Ninety-nine percent of the residents of Appalachia control less than half of the land — despite the area’s vast natural resources, inhabitants remain poor.

as well as:

Mountaintop removal mining: This destructive practice involves using explosives to blast off mountaintops to access coal seams. The rubble is then dumped into valleys, burying streams and forests, and causing significant water and air pollution.

which calls to mind an ironic parallel with Isiah 40:4:

Every valley shall be lifted up, and every mountain and hill made low; the uneven ground will become smooth, and the rugged land a plain.

Of course, one of the goals now is to work this into the song.

I'd intended to touch on a stoic attitude in the face of adversity. It's a positive trait of resiliant people, but in context, it's not necessarily a good thing (emphasis added):

Racial divisions have often been stoked to divide workers and pit races against each other. During Reconstruction, the period after the American Civil War in which Southern states were radically reformed, coal corporations discouraged education and civic action, forcing workers to become indebted to company stores, live in company housing, and generally become vulnerable to their employers. Community members regularly experienced punishment as a reprisal for speaking out against their employers. In his study of culture and poverty in Appalachia, Dwight Billings suggests that this has resulted in a fatalistic attitude in the Appalachian people, based on a history of political corruption and disenfranchisement, leading to a sense of powerlessness.

While my original intention was to show someone sticking it out through the hard times, that's not necessarily statistically accurate:

Poverty rates in the region are consistently higher than the national average, especially in rural areas. This is exacerbated by the out-migration of younger, working-age residents who leave in search of better opportunities elsewhere, leaving behind an aging population and a shrinking tax base.

To Nekujak's points - all this is basic work that should have been done long before posting anything.

While I won't be writing a scathing social-political commentary (there's no room for that anyway), I reserve the right to change the song goals to try to more accurately reflect the narrator's experience.

 

[Mike Greene]

My thoughts (not having read other people's thoughts):

1. I love the sound of this, all the way up until:

2. The part that starts with "When I'm standing on that golden shore." Just my opinion, but I'm not liking that part. Again, just my opinion, but ... I'm really not liking that part. Is that considered the chorus? Me personally, I'd lose it completely, and let the instrumental play until the next verse. I think it works great that way.

3. With that said, maybe the "When I'm standing" section would work better for me (and again, everybody's tastes are different) is the instrumental behind is was completely different. Like maybe go in a much darker and ominous direction, to highlight the juxtaposition of a bright melody against am dark setting. I'm just spitballing there.

 

[David Cuny]

1. I love the sound of this, all the way up until:

2. The part that starts with "When I'm standing on that golden shore." Just my opinion, but I'm not liking that part. Again, just my opinion, but ... I'm really not liking that part. Is that considered the chorus? Me personally, I'd lose it completely, and let the instrumental play until the next verse. I think it works great that way.

I hear you. It shifts from a dark and brooding minor key to an upbeat and happy sound that I'm not sure I can justify lyrically.

And although it's supposed to be the chorus, it's as long as a verse.

So yes, it's problematic in a number of ways.

I've got the verses roughed out, and a good idea what the chorus needs to say. I'll see if the lyrics can redeem the chorus. If not, I'll need to do some serious re-thinking of the song structure.

3. With that said, maybe the "When I'm standing" section would work better for me (and again, everybody's tastes are different) is the instrumental behind is was completely different. Like maybe go in a much darker and ominous direction, to highlight the juxtaposition of a bright melody against am dark setting. I'm just spitballing there.

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[Louie]

Is this good enough to go forward with?

I like the overall idea/concept of the song, the title, and I think you have a good balance between repetition and variety to keep the listener’s interest (for one, I like the way it goes from minor in the verse to major in the chorus, has a nice lift). I definitely think it would be worth continuing on to bring out its full potential.

Am I accidentally borrowing too much from someone else's song?

Nothing specific jumps out at me as recognizable to another song.

As far as a critique goes. One thing that bugs me is the guitar soloing during the vocal. I would strongly recommend switching to a strum pattern (could be an intricate strum pattern if it is movement in the background you are after), backing off on the dynamics (softer), when the vocal enters, with only an occasional fill for accent, say where the vocal is pausing. Also there are some pauses in the phrasing of the vocal that don’t feel quite right (I can’t articulate at the moment why it doesn’t feel right to me). One other thing that jumped out was the fiddle. I would lose the one you have, it’s just awful, and almost sounds like an out of tune trumpet in places. Come to think of it, it would be cool to hear a fiddle solo instead of a melody recap during that section where the fiddle plays the melody (I realize it is probably just a place holder at this point).

I would be willing to critique the performance, and some of the production aspects when you get there, but I wouldn’t want to interfere with what you got going as far as the song structure and lyrics.

 

[HCMarkus]

As far as a critique goes. One thing that bugs me is the guitar soloing during the vocal.

Same here.

Always bugged by the bandmate who feels noodling behind the lead vocal (as opposed to hitting spaces between vocal phrases) is a good thing.

 

[Paulieworld]

I listened to several of your songs this morning. I especially liked Falling and Time. It’s not what I would do, but I can hear the craftsmanship and care that you put into them. Great work, or play, however you see it.

 

[David Cuny]

I like the overall idea/concept of the song, the title, and I think you have a good balance between repetition and variety to keep the listener’s interest (for one, I like the way it goes from minor in the verse to major in the chorus, has a nice lift). I definitely think it would be worth continuing on to bring out its full potential.

Thanks!

I've taken Mike's advice and dropped the major chorus. Feel free to let me know if you think that was a mistake.

As far as a critique goes. One thing that bugs me is the guitar soloing during the vocal. I would strongly recommend switching to a strum pattern (could be an intricate strum pattern if it is movement in the background you are after), backing off on the dynamics (softer), when the vocal enters, with only an occasional fill for accent, say where the vocal is pausing. Also there are some pauses in the phrasing of the vocal that don’t feel quite right (I can’t articulate at the moment why it doesn’t feel right to me). One other thing that jumped out was the fiddle. I would lose the one you have, it’s just awful, and almost sounds like an out of tune trumpet in places. Come to think of it, it would be cool to hear a fiddle solo instead of a melody recap during that section where the fiddle plays the melody (I realize it is probably just a place holder at this point).

Yeah, they are all placeholders at this point. I've split off the guitar so it doesn't play under the vocals, and there's a placeholder guitar solo between the verses right now.

I would be willing to critique the performance, and some of the production aspects when you get there, but I wouldn’t want to interfere with what you got going as far as the song structure and lyrics.

Once I've got the structure in place, I'll start tightening up the vocals.

Thanks!

 

[David Cuny]

First of all, thanks for all the feedback. It's been helpful.

I've posted an update, replacing the original song with a number of changes:

• Verses are now complete. Or so I think. Lyrics subject to change, of course.
• I've dropped the major key choruses.
• There are two temp instrumentals.
• I've fixed the guitar so it no longer solos under the vocalist. I was too lazy to remove it from the mix, but it was irritating. Shed a tear for the guitarist.

Rather than write a proper outro, I've just truncated the first verse. I'm not sure how well that works.

I'd like to have the guitarist share his instrumental with the mandolin, or maybe fiddle, but he seems determined not to let anyone else get a word in edgewise. I think he's pissed I took him off the verses.

Perhaps it needs a vocal bridge?

I'll likely add harmonies, because harmonies are fun.

Anyway, my main questions are:

• Does this feel complete, in terms of form? Or is it too short, perhaps missing a bridge?
• Does the song make sense lyrically, or are there narrative holes?
• Are the words clear and intelligible? For example "hauling" seems to me a bit hard to understand.

It's still very much in draft form, so have at it!

 

[Louie]

I've taken Mike's advice and dropped the major chorus. Feel free to let me know if you think that was a mistake.

Perhaps saving it, for the very end rather than occurring at every version of the chorus.

Perhaps it needs a vocal bridge?

Or maybe that could be your surprise (with the major section).

 

[David Cuny]

Perhaps saving it, for the very end rather than occurring at every version of the chorus.

Or maybe that could be your surprise (with the major section).

I'll see if I can come up with something sensible for the lyrics there and see if that works.

And just when I thought I might have finished the lyrics.

 

[David Cuny]

OK, another update (see first post for the link).

Changes:

• Added harmonies
• Instrumentals play over the "old" chorus section
• Tweaks to the lyrics

The instrumentals are still placeholders, but probably fairly representative of what what they'll look like. I need to work with BiaB to get something a bit more cohesive.

I also need to break out the backing tracks into their individual instruments, although I'm not hearing that much to change on them. A bit of panning is likely to happen.

So that's what's coming next. Again, you're invited to give your two bits worth of opinion. You never know what will be useful (or not), and I've got relatively thick skin. (So I tell myself, anyway ).

I'd have liked to posted the prior versions, but the forum software says they're too large to upload. I could re-upload the old versions to SoundCloud for comparison, but they'll be pulled down at the end of this thread. On one hand, it might be useful to hear the old version. On the other other hand, you're mostly judging the current version on its merits, so..?

Back to the goal of the song: "A traditional bluegrass song with the theme of loss in realizing it's time to move on."

Thanks!

 

[Nekujak]

Okay @David Cuny , I'm going to (reluctantly) dip my toe into the pool and spout off some opinions. This is reeeeeally uncomfortable for me because I am by no means an expert, whatever that might be, and I really don't feel it's right for me, or anyone for that matter, to step all over your creative vision and expression. At the end of the day, I'm interested in hearing what you come up with, not in what I think you should come up with.

But since this thread is essentially meant to be a collaborative exploration, I'll do my best to play along...

SONGWRITING

Overall: Structurally, I think this song works well. This may seem like a strange comment, but I especially appreciate the space between each line of the melody. Very often, songwriters just spew lyrics out in one big run on sentence without considering how the barrage of words affects the listener. It's good to allow room for breathing.

In all other aspects, this is a competent representation of a bluegrass ballad - at least that's what I would call it.

Lyrics: I've listened to this song several times, not with a microscope, but with casually attentive ears, and I only sort of feel like I know what's going on. Some of this is due to the fact that I'm having trouble understanding some of the lyrics, especially in the first verse, which I suspect is mostly due to production issues (see below). Plus, I'm probably just being dense and missing things that are right in front of my face, but the narrative is confusing to me and doesn't really draw me in.

In the first verse, from what I'm able to discern, it sounds like the woman's lover, or maybe husband, left her. Then in the second, she sings, "Time for me to go down that long road." Why exactly does she feel that way? I get this probably represents her needing to abandon her old life and move on, but the narrative doesn't really help me understand her motivation. What's so bad about where she's living now that compels her to leave? Is she lonely and isolated? Are there too many painful memories? Did she hate living here to begin with? Does she want to return to someplace more familiar? etc... I feel like there's a lot of emotional detail worth exploring that's being glossed over or ignored.

There's a tiny bit more detail provided in the third verse - she doesn't want to sit around waiting to die. But that line doesn't really make sense to me. She's obviously been living here happily for quite some time - why has it suddenly become a place of stagnation for her?

And there's a line that sounds like, "buy up the land to bleed it dry", that seems to come out of nowhere. Up to this point, we've essentially viewed her as someone who's had her heart broken by her lover, but now there's a new element introduced that seems to have nothing to do with that. Again, I feel like the narrative needs more connective tissue to fully explain what's happening.

I find that most bluegrass ballads are very plainspoken and detailed in their narrative - almost like a children's story. But these lyrics are forcing me to make a lot of assumptions and leave me with questions.

Again, it's probably my own lack of awareness that's causing my confusion, so take what I say with a grain of salt - far be it from me to tell anyone how to write lyrics.

PRODUCTION
I realize this isn't the final produced version, so these comments are probably not all that relevant, but perhaps there may be something in here that will be of help with the final version.

Vocals: This is just a me thing, but the sound of SynthV always rubs me the wrong way. I instantly hear the digital artifacts, the unnatural transitions between certain notes, and strange little tonal characteristics. Also, the singer sounds to me like she has a Scandanavian accent, which takes me out of the bluegrass vibe, and may contribute to why I can't fully understand some words. I realize you're at the mercy of the software, so this isn't a criticism of your work. Just a commentary on why it's problematic for me to listen to.

Harmonies: I love harmonies, so really glad you added them in. To my ear, there are some notes that don't quite work well, mostly at the end of lines. Sorry, I can't point to specifics right now, but I'd revisit the harmonies to make sure they're... well, harmonious with the underlying chord structures. And when you do your final mix, make sure they are cohesive and blend seamlessly - right now, some of the parts poke out and are distracting.

Fadeout: I don't have anything against fadeouts, but with organic musical styles, I consider fadeouts to be inappropriate, generally. If this were my song, I'd work out a definitive ending, just like a bluegrass band would play it.

Balance: I know you're not at the mixing stage yet, so these are more cautionary comments for the future. The bass and mandolin chops are working well in the arrangement, but all the other instruments don't seem balanced in relation. The solo instruments seem too loud and don't feel like they're in the same space with the rest of the track. Panning, volume, and reverb will help with this.

Panning the instruments will also clear some space for the lead vocal in the center, which will probably help the lyrics be more understandable. Maybe a gentle boost around 3kHz on the vocal might also help the singer articulate better.

Solos: I can't provide specifics, but there are certain notes in the solos that aren't working with the underlying chords.

FINAL THOUGHTS
All of the above are nitpicky things that jump out at me. In general, I think this song works well and there's certainly nothing fundamentally "wrong" with it. For me personally, the biggest area that could use enhancement is the narrative. But again, that's just me.

REFERENCE TRACKS
One last thing... I love working with reference tracks, both when writing and especially when mixing. As you further refine this song, you may want to check out some of these similarly styled productions from Alison Krauss & Union Station:

• Bonita And Bill Butler (banjo, balance, harmonies)
• On The Outside Looking In (balance)
• Dust Bowl Children (banjo)
• My Poor Old Heart (banjo, harmonies)
• So Long, So Wrong (arrangement, banjo, harmonies)
• The Boy Who Wouldn't Hoe Corn (banjo, harmonies)

One thing that stands out for me with these tracks is the use of banjo. It instantly sets the appropriate tone and is used in nearly the same way on all of these songs - just a simple picking pattern. Also, the arrangements are very dynamic, with instruments moving in and out to create a musical ebb and flow, and the overall sound blending naturally.

Not trying in any way to compare your work to these songs, just offering them up as guideposts that may help along the way to bring your song to completion.


Okay whew... I hope there may be something useful here. But really, I think you should ignore everything I wrote and just do what feels natural and right to you. The appropriate response to my ramblings should be, "If you've got so much to say about it, why don't you go write your own bluegrass song!"

 

[David Cuny]

Okay @David Cuny , I'm going to (reluctantly) dip my toe into the pool and spout off some opinions. This is reeeeeally uncomfortable for me because I am by no means an expert, whatever that might be, and I really don't feel it's right for me, or anyone for that matter, to step all over your creative vision and expression. At the end of the day, I'm interested in hearing what you come up with, not in what I think you should come up with.

First, thanks for getting past that discomfort! I appreciate that.

If it helps, I'm no expert, either.

What you're hearing right now is what I've come up with.

SONGWRITING

Overall: Structurally, I think this song works well. This may seem like a strange comment, but I especially appreciate the space between each line of the melody. Very often, songwriters just spew lyrics out in one big run on sentence without considering how the barrage of words affects the listener. It's good to allow room for breathing.

In all other aspects, this is a competent representation of a bluegrass ballad - at least that's what I would call it.

So structurally it'll pass as faux bluegrass - excellent!

Lyrics: I've listened to this song several times, not with a microscope, but with casually attentive ears, and I only sort of feel like I know what's going on. Some of this is due to the fact that I'm having trouble understanding some of the lyrics, especially in the first verse, which I suspect is mostly due to production issues (see below). Plus, I'm probably just being dense and missing things that are right in front of my face, but the narrative is confusing to me and doesn't really draw me in.

Well, you've identified two major issues right there.

If the narrative isn't clear, and it's not compelling, there's not much of a song there, is there?

You're not being dense - the verses don't connect well.

In the first verse, from what I'm able to discern, it sounds like the woman's lover, or maybe husband, left her. Then in the second, she sings, "Time for me to go down that long road." Why exactly does she feel that way? I get this probably represents her needing to abandon her old life and move on, but the narrative doesn't really help me understand her motivation. What's so bad about where she's living now that compels her to leave? Is she lonely and isolated? Are there too many painful memories? Did she hate living here to begin with? Does she want to return to someplace more familiar? etc... I feel like there's a lot of emotional detail worth exploring that's being glossed over or ignored.

There's a tiny bit more detail provided in the third verse - she doesn't want to sit around waiting to die. But that line doesn't really make sense to me. She's obviously been living here happily for quite some time - why has it suddenly become a place of stagnation for her?

I could explain the line, but the song should speak for itself, right?

And there's a line that sounds like, "buy up the land to bleed it dry", that seems to come out of nowhere. Up to this point, we've essentially viewed her as someone who's had her heart broken by her lover, but now there's a new element introduced that seems to have nothing to do with that. Again, I feel like the narrative needs more connective tissue to fully explain what's happening.

Yep, that's all on me.

I find that most bluegrass ballads are very plainspoken and detailed in their narrative - almost like a children's story. But these lyrics are forcing me to make a lot of assumptions and leave me with questions.

Sigh. As much as I hate lyric writing, I need to figure out how to fix this.

Again, it's probably my own lack of awareness that's causing my confusion, so take what I say with a grain of salt - far be it from me to tell anyone how to write lyrics.

If I wanted the lyrics to be unclear, that would be one thing.

You're not telling me how to write lyrics, your telling me if the lyrics I wrote are clear to you. Now, they may be clear to everyone else, but I highly doubt it.

PRODUCTION
I realize this isn't the final produced version, so these comments are probably not all that relevant, but perhaps there may be something in here that will be of help with the final version.

Vocals: This is just a me thing, but the sound of SynthV always rubs me the wrong way. I instantly hear the digital artifacts, the unnatural transitions between certain notes, and strange little tonal characteristics. Also, the singer sounds to me like she has a Scandanavian accent, which takes me out of the bluegrass vibe, and may contribute to why I can't fully understand some words. I realize you're at the mercy of the software, so this isn't a criticism of your work. Just a commentary on why it's problematic for me to listen to.

I understand that listening to AI vocals is problematic. I have trouble listening to Suno county vocals - they've got a sound that's too polish and perfected, and it turns my brain off so I can't hear them.

I'll just call this a demo, and live with it. Mabe the IK ReVoice program can help with that.

Harmonies: I love harmonies, so really glad you added them in. To my ear, there are some notes that don't quite work well, mostly at the end of lines. Sorry, I can't point to specifics right now, but I'd revisit the harmonies to make sure they're... well, harmonious with the underlying chord structures. And when you do your final mix, make sure they are cohesive and blend seamlessly - right now, some of the parts poke out and are distracting.

I usually do harmonies by ear, and I've got a lot of tolerance for dissonance.

I'll go back and check the candences, thanks!

Fadeout: I don't have anything against fadeouts, but with organic musical styles, I consider fadeouts to be inappropriate, generally. If this were my song, I'd work out a definitive ending, just like a bluegrass band would play it.

I'll give that some thought, but I think that falls into the "too much work for the end result".

That's not to say you aren't right about this. One of the reasons for the fade is the final "verse" is a truncation of a real verse, and so it makes sense to me fade it as well. But that's more a product of laziness than anything else.

Balance: I know you're not at the mixing stage yet, so these are more cautionary comments for the future. The bass and mandolin chops are working well in the arrangement, but all the other instruments don't seem balanced in relation. The solo instruments seem too loud and don't feel like they're in the same space with the rest of the track. Panning, volume, and reverb will help with this.

Confession time: I'm terrible about using reference tracks, even though I know I should use them. I'll have a listen to some tracks to set up a better balance.

Thanks for the list!

Solos: I can't provide specifics, but there are certain notes in the solos that aren't working with the underlying chords.

Hrm... With my ears, I may just have to live with it. But I'll spend some time listening and see if I can hear what you're hearing.

I've got access to banjo and mandolin leads as well, so maybe I'll see if those are better fits.

FINAL THOUGHTS
All of the above are nitpicky things that jump out at me. In general, I think this song works well and there's certainly nothing fundamentally "wrong" with it. For me personally, the biggest area that could use enhancement is the narrative. But again, that's just me.

Sadly for me, I think you're 100% right here. It's going to take some work to fix this.

REFERENCE TRACKS

Thanks for the list!

One thing that stands out for me with these tracks is the use of banjo. It instantly sets the appropriate tone and is used in nearly the same way on all of these songs - just a simple picking pattern. Also, the arrangements are very dynamic, with instruments moving in and out to create a musical ebb and flow, and the overall sound blending naturally.

There's not much flow with the instruments, because they don't have a lot of phrasing going on. I had a go at trying to put together some MIDI tracks, but at that tempo, it wasn't working.

But I know exactly what you mean.

Okay whew... I hope there may be something useful here. But really, I think you should ignore everything I wrote and just do what feels natural and right to you. The appropriate response to my ramblings should be, "If you've got so much to say about it, why don't you go write your own bluegrass song!"

Hehehe. Sometimes I feel exactly the same when I critique other people's work. And if I'm lucky, it does convince me to write a song in that style!

Everything you're written was helpful, even if I didn't want to hear it.

Thanks!