Down That Long Road (was "Raven") - Song in Progress

[David Cuny]

I've made changes to the lyrics that hopefully address the issues raised.

I've also modified some of the phrasing, so hopefully the words are more clear.

Let me know if it's an improvement or not.

 

[Nekujak]

So structurally it'll pass as faux bluegrass - excellent!

Absolutely. And I should've directly mentioned that in terms of your stated goal: "A traditional bluegrass song with the theme of loss in realizing it's time to move on." I feel you've succeeded. So congratulations on that achievement!

Sigh. As much as I hate lyric writing, I need to figure out how to fix this.

Songwriting is very hard work - make no mistake about it. Most of the time, I actually don't enjoy the process and would rather be doing something less rigorous.

Every now and then a nearly fully formed song drops in our laps, but most of the time, it's an arduous grind to arrive at a finished song where everything works just right.

I usually do harmonies by ear, and I've got a lot of tolerance for dissonance.

Nothing wrong with dissonance, but generally speaking, bluegrass is a VERY diatonic musical style, with everything staying safely in between the lines. There are of course, exceptions, and there's nothing wrong with going outside the lines if that's where your ear draws you.

Hrm... With my ears, I may just have to live with it. But I'll spend some time listening and see if I can hear what you're hearing.

I think it might be a simple case of a major pentatonic solo over minor chords, or vice versa. The same solo in a different key may or may not solve it.

Everything you're written was helpful, even if I didn't want to hear it.

You're very brave for exposing yourself to this. I feel bad for dumping a bunch of critiques that really amount to nothing more than my personal opinions and preferences. I know how hard it is to receive criticism - I'm horrible at it - and I don't want to inflict that same misery on other folks. I should just keep my mouth shut.

I've made changes to the lyrics that hopefully connect the verses together.

I've also modified some of the phrasing, so hopefully the words are more clear.

Let me know if it's an improvement.

Great. I will have to listen later... am being called to dinner right now!

 

[David Cuny]

Absolutely. And I should've directly mentioned that in terms of your stated goal: "A traditional bluegrass song with the theme of loss in realizing it's time to move on." I feel you've succeeded. So congratulations on that achievement!

Songwriting is very hard work - make no mistake about it. Most of the time, I actually don't enjoy the process and would rather be doing something less rigorous.

Same here. There are parts that are much more pleasant than others - cool chord progressions, working with melodies, adding harmonies, simple instrumental parts - all these are fairly easy.

Rewriting? I can do that.

But the first draft of lyrics? It doesn't seem to get easier, it requires discipline to keep plowing through until I've got something, and trusting in the process.

Every now and then a nearly fully formed song drops in our laps, but most of the time, it's an arduous grind to arrive at a finished song where everything works just right.

The hard part - for me - is not settling for "good enough".

But the reality is that something that's finished and imperfect is infinitely better than something that's perfect and unfinished.

Nothing wrong with dissonance, but generally speaking, bluegrass is a VERY diatonic musical style, with everything staying safely in between the lines. There are of course, exceptions, and there's nothing wrong with going outside the lines if that's where your ear draws you.

Understood, thanks for the clarification!

You're very brave for exposing yourself to this. I feel bad for dumping a bunch of critiques that really amount to nothing more than my personal opinions and preferences.

Not really brave - I just know that I'm not going to get better unless I listen.

And there are people here who have useful things to say, so it would be foolish not to ask.

I know how hard it is to receive criticism - I'm horrible at it - and I don't want to inflict that same misery on other folks. I should just keep my mouth shut.

No! I've specifically asked for this, and you've provided excellent feedback. Not only have you explained why you feel something, but you've often offered examples of how to rectify the issue in general terms, without telling me how you would have done it.

That's not easy to do, and I appreciate it.

That's the difference between constructive and non-constructive feedback. Especially in written communication, it's hard to gauge how your words are being taken. Are you talking to someone in a helpful way, or are you crushing their soul? Are you being respectful of the work they've done, but offered what might be helpful criticism?

That's something that's really, really hard to gauge.

Add onto that not knowing much about me, and this is a veritable tightrope walk.

Don't worry - you're doing great! You're providing helpful feedback and modeling how to do it without impose yourself too much in the process.

But feel free to state your personal opinion, too!

Great. I will have to listen later... am being called to dinner right now!

One must have priorities!

 

[Nekujak]

I've made changes to the lyrics that hopefully address the issues raised.

I've also modified some of the phrasing, so hopefully the words are more clear.

Let me know if it's an improvement or not.

Definitely an improvement as far as I'm concerned. The vocals are considerably clearer, although that Scandanavian accent still bugs me (not your fault), I think some of the rewritten lines help the narrative make more sense, and the solo instruments seem better integrated into the piece.

So bravo! IMHO, it's a big step in the right direction.

That said, if you want me to press further, I do have some additional notes about the lyrics...

I still find the third verse jarring in terms of narrative continuity. We have two verses that are essentially driven by the woman losing her lover, but then the third verse comes out of nowhere as an afterthought that basically dispells the emotional investment established in the first two verses.

Forgive my indulgence, but if I were to structure the song, I would have four verses, in which each verse describes it's own compelling picture of things changing and getting bleaker, i.e.; going down that long road, with the last verse delivering the final, most personal and tragic, conclusion. (Sorry, I know this goes counter to everything you said you appreciated about my feedback, i.e.; not telling you how I would do it. But I can't think of a clearer way to illustrate this particular point. Please forgive me, or better yet... ignore me altogether.)

So for example:

• Verse 1: coal vultures stripped the land - carried the coal down that long road
• Verse 2: no one left here, no more work - they all went down that long road
• Verse 3: my lover left me - he went down that long road
• Verse 4: I'm all alone nothing left here - all that's left for me is that long road

Notice how the verses progress from the large big picture view down to the intimate and personal, which ultimately delivers the biggest impact. In terms of narrative, this song reminds me of Dylan's "North Country Blues". If you examine those lyrics, you'll find a similar progression, from big picture down to tragically personal, which ultimately gives the song it's powerful emotional impact.

Never squander an opportunity to hit the audience in the feels. They'll love you for it.

Anyway, that's simply my 2 cents. I encourage you to follow your best instincts, as always.

Are you planning on having a real singer sing this song?

 

[Nekujak]

Oh forgot to mention one last thing...

I don't really like how the two solo instruments are playing at the same time. Only one should be audible at a time. They can trade phrases, if you like, but having them play simultaneously sounds messy to me.

Two experienced live players can do it because they are listening to one another and can compliment each other, but throwing two sets of loops together (I assume these are loops/phrases) doesn't have the same effect.

 

[David Cuny]

I still find the third verse jarring in terms of narrative continuity. We have two verses that are essentially driven by the woman losing her lover, but then the third verse comes out of nowhere as an afterthought that basically dispells the emotional investment established in the first two verses.

I'll argue that this isn't entirely true. The first verse doesn't say why the lover has left, although the narrator is bitter, calling them a "so called true love".

But the second verse hints at something systemic - "Nobody's left except for me", and also reveals that the narrator will soon be leaving as well. So the expectation that their lover has left because of some personal issue is a bit undercut.

That leaves the third verse to take a further step back, to show something larger is at play. They had apparently been hoping to stay, but with the loss of her lover, there's nothing left for her.

So there's an intentional movement from verse to verse where the scope moves out, with each verse adding information to understand what's happening.

Forgive my indulgence, but if I were to structure the song, I would have four verses, in which each verse describes it's own compelling picture of things changing and getting bleaker, i.e.; going down that long road, with the last verse delivering the final, most personal and tragic, conclusion. (Sorry, I know this goes counter to everything you said you appreciated about my feedback, i.e.; not telling you how I would do it. But I can't think of a clearer way to illustrate this particular point. Please forgive me, or better yet... ignore me altogether.)

First of all, no need to apologize. Of course you need to break down the function of each verse to explain things.

So for example:

• Verse 1: coal vultures stripped the land - carried the coal down that long road
• Verse 2: no one left here, no more work - they all went down that long road
• Verse 3: my lover left me - he went down that long road
• Verse 4: I'm all alone nothing left here - all that's left for me is that long road

Notice how the verses progress from the large big picture view down to the intimate and personal, which ultimately delivers the biggest impact. In terms of narrative, this song reminds me of Dylan's "North Country Blues". If you examine those lyrics, you'll find a similar progression, from big picture down to tragically personal, which ultimately gives the song it's powerful emotional impact.

You're right - for the purpose of clarity, it makes sense to lay out the situation in the first verse.

But...

First: Is it a stronger narrative to place the personal impact in the last verse? I'll agree that it's a logical progression. But my own (possibly wrong) feeling is that the emotional hook needs to happen at the beginning. Otherwise, it runs the risk of starting off sounding like a diatribe against coal companies. Why is the listener going to continue listening?

The only way to know for sure it to write that version. And of course, I'll try to avoid that if possible.

If I went your route, I'd be tempted to present the personal problem first, swapping the first and second verses in your example.

Second: There's an intentional misdirection in the first verse, which you address explicitly by adding another verse with "no one left here, no more work - they all went down that long road".

You've made the strong argument that this style of song should make things crystal-clear to the listener. This can be done by amending the first verse (which I've been considering), along the lines of:

cold september
woke me from my sleep
chill in the air
MY LOVER'S GONE

OUT OF WORK
SO TIRED OF HANGING ON
he slipped away first light of dawn
LEAVING ME ON MY OWN
HE'S down that long road

This doesn't explain why there are no jobs, but it no longer misdirects the listener.

Anyway, I've updated it with the new lyrics and I'll give it some more thought.

Never squander an opportunity to hit the audience in the feels. They'll love you for it.

Oh, it's all about the feels. That's been my motto for a long time.

Anyway, that's simply my 2 cents. I encourage you to follow your best instincts, as always.

I appreciate that!

Are you planning on having a real singer sing this song?

No, I'm just a hobbyist. The only real singer for my songs is me.

It's just so much easier to put together vocals using a synth vocalist. My house is in no way a good place to record. For example, it's raining and the flat roof is leaking (as they invariably do), so there are loud plops as drops land in assorted buckets throughout the house.

And it's dead simple to change lyrics, even after the song has been mixed.

Of course, there's a huge down side: they're synthetic vocalists.

I don't really like how the two solo instruments are playing at the same time. Only one should be audible at a time. They can trade phrases, if you like, but having them play simultaneously sounds messy to me.

You're absolutely right.

I'm using Band in a Box to generate the material, but behind the scenes it's loops.

I like what the instruments are doing in general, but there doesn't seem to be opportunity to trade off between the two. If I can't get the tracks to play well with each other (see what I did there? ) I'll have to look at other tracks that work better. Or I'll just give one instrumental section to one instrument, and the other to another.

Thanks again!

 

[Nekujak]

But my own (possibly wrong) feeling is that the emotional hook needs to happen at the beginning. Otherwise, it runs the risk of starting off sounding like a diatribe against coal companies. Why is the listener going to continue listening?

I don't necessarily agree, but I'm certainly not going to dissuade you from writing the song in a way that makes sense to you. Your creative viewpoint is what's most important in all this.

I just want to bring up one point as food for thought. If a song begins with its most significant emotional hook, then what remains to keep the listener engaged for the rest of the song?

Songs are like mini-movies with a beginning, middle, and end. Ideally, the ending delivers a payoff that makes everything that came before it worth the journey. I wouldn't want a movie to give away its ending right from the start. The beginning should be compelling enough to get me interested, and the story should evolve in a way that's engaging and reveals new information, but all of that goes out the window if the ending doesn't deliver.

Again, I refer to Dylan's "North Country Blues". Not as something to copy or mimic, but simply for the masterful storytelling and how it sets up the last verse to be so sad and tragic.

But like I said, please follow your own instincts and write the song in the way that makes the most sense to you. I'm not saying my suggestion is completely right... it's just what feels right for me.

No, I'm just a hobbyist. The only real singer for my songs is me.

It's just so much easier to put together vocals using a synth vocalist. My house is in no way a good place to record. For example, it's raining and the flat roof is leaking (as they invariably do), so there are loud plops as drops land in assorted buckets throughout the house.

And it's dead simple to change lyrics, even after the song has been mixed.

Of course, there's a huge down side: they're synthetic vocalists.

I totally get the convenience and ease of doing everything in the box. Nothing wrong with that.

I thought I read in another thread that you play in a church band, so it occurred to me that perhaps there's an exceptional singer in the church choir who'd be willing to record this vocal for you.

I realize you don't feel your house is suitable for recording, especially with a leaky roof (I'm currently battling my own roof leak issues). But maybe you could make a suitable space in just one room - it really doesn't take a lot of space to record a singer. Or if you're using a laptop for your DAW, you could record somewhere outside your house - like maybe at the church during off hours?

Just trying to think creatively to help elevate your song. If you can get a good vocal, all the other issues we've been discussing become considerably less significant. I'll listen to Alison Krauss sing anything - I don't care what she's talking about

I like what the instruments are doing in general, but there doesn't seem to be opportunity to trade off between the two.

Maybe you can just let the instruments play together like they do now, but use automation to mute one of them while the other plays for a couple of bars, then mute that one and unmute the other one and let it play for a couple of bars. Lather, rinse, repeat. This might give you a reasonably good trade-off effect.

If an abrupt mute/unmute doesn't sound great, you can ramp the volume up or down on each track at a rate that sounds best.

Good luck!!

 

[David Cuny]

I don't necessarily agree, but I'm certainly not going to dissuade you from writing the song in a way that makes sense to you. Your creative viewpoint is what's most important in all this.

And I don't necessarily disagree with you.

I just want to bring up one point as food for thought. If a song begins with its most significant emotional hook, then what remains to keep the listener engaged for the rest of the song?

Think of this like a country song. The chorus has a particular meaning after the first verse, but each verse adds an additional meaning and weight to the chorus as it progresses.

I think this is what happens here, although it's happening in the opposite order.

That you're arguing I take the opposite direction tells me that as you are listening, my choice isn't an effective one.

Songs are like mini-movies with a beginning, middle, and end. Ideally, the ending delivers a payoff that makes everything that came before it worth the journey. I wouldn't want a movie to give away its ending right from the start. The beginning should be compelling enough to get me interested, and the story should evolve in a way that's engaging and reveals new information, but all of that goes out the window if the ending doesn't deliver.

You're suggested that perhaps:

• The beginning is not compelling enough to get you interested;
• The story doesn't evolve in a way that's engaging and reveals new information;
• The ending doesn't deliver.

I think those elements are there. Whether they're done artfully enough is certainly open to interpretation.

Before I dive into this, let me again acknowledge: You wouldn't have written this if you didn't think there were issues with the song. I'm not saying there aren't issues. I'm going to suggest that these elements are there, just perhaps not effectively done.

I'm putting this here so you can understand my thinking, and what and how I've intended to communicate. Hopefully, that'll explain what I tried to do, and how I tried to accomplish it in this song.


The Beginning

I've attempted to open with a "problem statement", adding in some admittedly generic but descriptive language to hook in the listener:

cold september / woke me from my sleep
chill in the air / my lover's gone

It sets the scene to a specific time and place, and lays out the problem. The initial version of the song had her emotional reaction to this:

my so-called true love is nowhere to be seen
he slipped away first light of dawn

However, this was the wrong approach, as it misleads the listener into thinking the core problem is the relationship, and not environmental. So that was replaced with:

there's no more work / he's tired of hanging on
he slipped away first light of dawn

Here, although the second verse reveals that she's emotionally distraught, she understands the forces that have led him away. This helps set up the following verses, which expand on this.


The Evolution

There are multiple elements moving the song from the initial state to the final state.

Each verse adds additional information about this narrator's situation, enlarging the scope:

1. Her lover can't find work;
2. Everyone else has left;
3. The world around her has been destroyed by industry

As the verses progress, the language moves from factual observation to personal feelings:

1. "chill in the air", "he's tired of holding on"
2. "i feel the hot tears"
3. "i never dreamed", "waiting to die", "all these damned vultures"

The Ending

The verses also drive to the ending, where she accepts she can no longer fight the forces:

1. She sees her lover is gone;
2. She hears the raven say she is next;
3. She imagines she would stay, but can no longer believe that;
4. She knows it's time to leave

Let's go back to the song's goal:

"A traditional bluegrass song with the theme of loss in realizing it's time to move on."

As the song moves through the verses, the loss becomes larger in scope, and more personal, with the need to "move on" becoming accepted. That's why - for this song - I've taken a micro to macro approach.

So What's The Problem?

Back to the obvious: you wouldn't be making these points if the song delivered.

While there's room for another verse - or twenty, if I'm looking at Dylan - I don't think that's the solution.

Or perhaps that is the problem: there's simply too much to fit into a small song, and I've just tried to be too ambitious with the material.

Or did I miss something more fundamental?

Again, I refer to Dylan's "North Country Blues". Not as something to copy or mimic, but simply for the masterful storytelling and how it sets up the last verse to be so sad and tragic.

I won't argue that's not true!

But like I said, please follow your own instincts and write the song in the way that makes the most sense to you. I'm not saying my suggestion is completely right... it's just what feels right for me.

At the end of the day, that's exactly what I'm doing.

But... we're also having a fruitful discussion about songwriting in general, and this song in specific. And I really appreciate that! Thanks for being part of the beta testers.

I thought I read in another thread that you play in a church band, so it occurred to me that perhaps there's an exceptional singer in the church choir who'd be willing to record this vocal for you.

I thought this was an exceptional song, I might go that route. Or even a terrible song that I was exceptionally fond of.

And at some point in the very near future, I'll put more of my own vocals on these demos. Not because I'm particularly fond of my voice, but because AI voices are problematic.

But for the moment, I think of these as "good enough" to show the song off, and move on to the next song.

The reality is that with a good song, guitar and vocals would probably serve my purpose. But it's fun to do all this production work - especially in comparison to writing lyrics. Sometimes I think songwriting is an excuse to use all these cool VI sounds I spend too much money on.

I realize you don't feel your house is suitable for recording, especially with a leaky roof (I'm currently battling my own roof leak issues). But maybe you could make a suitable space in just one room - it really doesn't take a lot of space to record a singer. Or if you're using a laptop for your DAW, you could record somewhere outside your house - like maybe at the church during off hours?

I appreciate the nudges. I have made do with what I've got, and it's fine... As long as it's not a rainstorm.

Just trying to think creatively to help elevate your song. If you can get a good vocal, all the other issues we've been discussing become considerably less significant. I'll listen to Alison Krauss sing anything - I don't care what she's talking about

I'll keep reminding myself about the need to have a real vocalist.

Or maybe use the IK ReVoice. Yeah, using a different synthetic voice will surely solve the problem!

Maybe you can just let the instruments play together like they do now, but use automation to mute one of them while the other plays for a couple of bars, then mute that one and unmute the other one and let it play for a couple of bars. Lather, rinse, repeat. This might give you a reasonably good trade-off effect.

I know exactly what you're talking about. Problematically, these voices don't sound like they're trading off if I do that.

There are lots of solutions available to me - using other tracks, pitch stretching, etc.

But I'm trying not to get too deep into that, because it's always a bummer to have worked out the automation and then have to squeeze in another verse, or chop an instrumental in half because it's too long.

If an abrupt mute/unmute doesn't sound great, you can ramp the volume up or down on each track at a rate that sounds best.

Yes! Crossfades are my friend!

Good luck!!

Thanks again - I appreciate your willingness to help out here!

If anyone else wants to weigh in, have at it! That's why we've got this forum, right?

 

[Nekujak]

Think of this like a country song. The chorus has a particular meaning after the first verse, but each verse adds an additional meaning and weight to the chorus as it progresses.

I think this is what happens here, although it's happening in the opposite order.

That you're arguing I take the opposite direction tells me that as you are listening, my choice isn't an effective one.

My opinion is simply just that: one single opinion.

It's impossible to please everyone, and you'll go crazy if you try. All I can offer is my own personal viewpoint, which in this case, happens to present a slightly opposing approach. Nothing wrong with that, and it doesn't mean there's anything intrinsically wrong with your approach - we're just looking at the same issue from different perspectives. All good.

You're suggested that perhaps:

• The beginning is not compelling enough to get you interested;
• The story doesn't evolve in a way that's engaging and reveals new information;
• The ending doesn't deliver.

I think those elements are there. Whether they're done artfully enough is certainly open to interpretation.

I'm simply suggesting there may be a different method for telling the same story.

I never intended to convey that your beginning isn't compelling, your story isn't engaging, and your ending doesn't deliver. I apologize if it came across that way. I was merely highlighting the earmarks of good storytelling, which I think we all can generally agree on.

All of this was simply in response to your statement that the song should start with its most emotionally compelling element. While I was pointing out that a narrative's most impactful emotional element might be utilized more effectively as an ending rather than the beginning.

I'm putting this here so you can understand my thinking, and what and how I've intended to communicate. Hopefully, that'll explain what I tried to do, and how I tried to accomplish it in this song.

Clearly you've given this a lot of thought, and your storytelling approach certainly has merit. There's absolutely no compelling reason to completely re-architect your song just because of one person's opinion, and more importantly, because there's nothing necessarily flawed or ineffective with your approach.

My suggestions simply emanated from my own intuitive belief that a personal statement has more emotional impact than a global one. That's really the main point I was trying to make.

So for example, a statement like: "The flood came and swept away the town," certainly has impact. But a statement like: "The flood came and drowned my wife and kids in its raging waters," has much more emotional power because it's deeply personal and is more relatable.

But that doesn't necessarily mean your song's narrative arc must go from global to personal. I was simply mentioning that's the approach I would consider if it were my song.

The reality is that with a good song, guitar and vocals would probably serve my purpose. But it's fun to do all this production work - especially in comparison to writing lyrics.

It's important to be doing things that are fun in our lives. If it brings you joy, and you're not hurting anyone, then definitely make the most of the opportunity!

Or maybe use the IK ReVoice. Yeah, using a different synthetic voice will surely solve the problem!

As soon as I finish getting my new music PC up and running, I'll be trying my first foray into AI voice substitution with SoundID VoiceAI. I'm skeptical, but also curious to hear the results. At this point, I figure it's more of an investment in the product's future, since I think we're still a year or two away from seamless AI vocals.

Thanks again - I appreciate your willingness to help out here!

It's been an interesting process and seems to have generated some healthy disucssion. Hopefully, some of this has been useful for you, and for anyone reading this thread. And thanks to you for getting the ball rolling and offering up your song.

But I gotta say, it still feels well out of my comfort zone to be critiquing other people's art

 

[Louie]

If anyone else wants to weigh in, have at it! That's why we've got this forum, right?

It’s feeling better!

I agree with @Nekujak on the solos, as far as one instrument playing lead at a time. I can’t fault your skill in combining them, it is more about allowing those sections to breathe, so a bluegrass listener feels comfy. Not that I haven’t seen it done live, but it’s like tightrope walking.

BTW, the fiddle is sounding worlds better now. And your new version feels better as far as the bass and the upbeat chop being more audible--which is crucial for a better pocket and feeling of forward motion. I would 2nd hiring a bluegrass vocalist though, eventually. There is a timing or rhythmic thing, that the synth vocalist isn’t delivering. The writing of the rhythms themselves are in the ballpark, but the rhythmic delivery of the vocalist is square. For a stellar reference, check out anything Sierra Hull at a similar tempo, just listening to how she makes the rhythm pop. You can tap your toe to simply vocal and mando chop only, nothing else required. Apologize in advance if those comments aren’t very relevant to this stage in your writing—just what immediately came to mind from gut reaction listening to the latest version.

Also a thumbs up to this thread as good example for the spirit of the forum (IMHO).

I'll listen to Alison Krauss sing anything - I don't care what she's talking about

Amen to that.

Edit:

Totally different mood. But the way she delivers the chorus on this tune is a great example for the rhythmic aspect (the sixteenth notes). Cued up to the chorus:

 

[David Cuny]

I never intended to convey that your beginning isn't compelling, your story isn't engaging, and your ending doesn't deliver. I apologize if it came across that way. I was merely highlighting the earmarks of good storytelling, which I think we all can generally agree on.

No apologies necessary! It's exactly what I was looking for.

And you didn't come across that way. I should have paraphrased your comments as correctly saying you feel it could be more compelling and perhaps better deliver the message.

That's an honest and useful opinion. And more than just given opinion, you've explained why you feel that way, and what could be done.

That's the difference between an opinion to a discussion.

All of this was simply in response to your statement that the song should start with its most emotionally compelling element. While I was pointing out that a narrative's most impactful emotional element might be utilized more effectively as an ending rather than the beginning.

Yes, it just that correction makes a mess of what I've already done. I'm complaining about not wanting to do the extra credit homework I asked for.

Clearly you've given this a lot of thought, and your storytelling approach certainly has merit. There's absolutely no compelling reason to completely re-architect your song just because of one person's opinion, and more importantly, because there's nothing necessarily flawed or ineffective with your approach.

And even if I didn't do that, it's still a useful thought experiment, which is what this is about, right?

It's not so much the idea of reworking it that's the problem. It's the amount of work it would take. But that's not really a good reason not to do it, is it?

So for example, a statement like: "The flood came and swept away the town," certainly has impact. But a statement like: "The flood came and drowned my wife and kids in its raging waters," has much more emotional power because it's deeply personal and is more relatable.

Yep. As I outlined, that's a big change to the emotional arc, and to the storytelling as well.

So the real question is: would it make sense to re-architect it from scratch, instead of trying to retain the existing material?

My experience with that sort of rewrite is that as it goes through various drafts, more and more of the original material falls away until there's very little of it that's left. There's a temptation to hold onto words or phrases from the initial version that really don't serve the new narrative - sort of like vestigial tails.

It's important to be doing things that are fun in our lives. If it brings you joy, and you're not hurting anyone, then definitely make the most of the opportunity!

Despite any whining, I'm enjoying myself.

Songwriting is a pretty solitary endeavor. Even with all this input and discussion, the process of sitting down and doing it is still a slog. But it's nice to hash this stuff out sometimes. Goodness knows my family doesn't want to hear it.

As soon as I finish getting my new music PC up and running, I'll be trying my first foray into AI voice substitution with SoundID VoiceAI. I'm skeptical, but also curious to hear the results. At this point, I figure it's more of an investment in the product's future, since I think we're still a year or two away from seamless AI vocals.

I've already got Vocoflex, but it's not going to correct issues with accent-related vowels. In fact, it'll occasionally make things worse by mis-identifying phonemes.

I suspect there are any number of voice cloning applications on the way.

A while back, I ripped someone's vocal and imported it into SynthV, doing gender swap, as he'd sung the song from a female perspective. It required a lot of cleanup on the phonemes, but it kept the pitch and duration information. The results were pretty impressive.

It's been an interesting process and seems to have generated some healthy disucssion. Hopefully, some of this has been useful for you, and for anyone reading this thread. And thanks to you for getting the ball rolling and offering up your song.

It's been very helpful, thanks!

But I gotta say, it's still feels well out of my comfort zone to be critiquing other people's art

You couldn't make me do any changes to the song that I didn't want to do, or wasn't curious about.

And it's a good exercise for me to get out of my comfort zone and see how other people experience my songs.

You aren't really critiquing, it's telling how the song speaks to you, through your own lens of musical experience.

And I appreciate your kindness while doing it.

 

[David Cuny]

It’s feeling better!

Thanks!

I would 2nd hiring a bluegrass vocalist though, eventually. There is a timing or rhythmic thing, that the synth vocalist isn’t delivering. The writing of the rhythms themselves are in the ballpark, but the rhythmic delivery of the vocalist is square. For a stellar reference, check out anything Sierra Hull at a similar tempo, just listening to how she makes the rhythm pop.

Any issues with the rhythm are with me, not the software. I'm the one drawing in the notes.

Although I have had to make some adjustments in places where the articulation couldn't keep up with the notes. In those places, I've opted to go with less "pop" for the sake of clarity.

Thanks for the suggestion about Sierra Hull, I'll have a listen and no doubt be inspired and sad.

Apologize in advance if those comments aren’t very relevant to this stage in your writing—just what immediately came to mind from gut reaction listening to the latest version.

I've been changing the rhythm of the the lyrics all along - especially as the lyrics change.

That's one of the nice things about synth vocals - they don't complain if you decide to change your mind yet again about how a line should be phrased.

Feel free to jump in with more comments about anything! Think of this as a beta test of the forum.

 

[David Cuny]

I've posted the rewrite.

The mix is a mess, and the instrumental parts aren't in place yet. Some phrasing still needs work and some words are mushy.

I'm not that sure the final tag is needed - it could probably just end by fading at the second instrumental.

Let me know what you think! Too much of a information dump?

It feels a bit weird to talk about fracking in a song, but it wasn't that the mining had taken all the coal from the area. Mining ceased because fracking made natural gas a much more cost-effective option.

 

[Nekujak]

Just a suggestion, @David Cuny... since it seems like the last couple of revisions have been primarily focused on the lyrics, it would be easier to evaluate changes if you simply posted a new version of the lyrics.

Having to listen to the entire song again to assess lyrical rewrites is, how shall I say... rather unwieldy, especially given your disclaimer: "The mix is a mess, and the instrumental parts aren't in place yet. Some phrasing still needs work and some words are mushy."

Also, for me in particular, the typical SynthV artifacts coupled with that confounded Scandanavian accent (none of which are your fault) are a big distraction. (Wacky side note... I recently started watching "Foundation", the sci-fi series based on Isaac Asimov's writings, and one of the main characters is a female android named Demerzel, whose voice and accent is EXACTLY like your SynthV singer's. So every time I listen to the song, all I see in my head is that android, which definitely kills the Appalachian vibe for me )

Given that you're still rewriting the lyrics, the instrumental arrangement and the mix shouldn't even be a consideration. Once the writing is finished, you can devote your full attention to the production knowing you have a solid song in hand.

IMHO, one of the most significant downsides of the DAW era, is that DAWs have conflated the singular tasks of writing, arranging, and mixing - each of which, is a distinct discipline that deserves its own focused effort. Back before DAWs, we'd write a song at a piano or guitar, then arrange it with our bandmates or a producer, and only then, actually record and mix it. There were exceptions of course, but generally, this was the workflow for most songwriters, especially the pros.

Personally, I like to have a song completely buttoned down before working on the arrangement. That's not to say tweaks can't happen while arranging, but they're usually extremely small. It's very freeing to be able to devote 100% of your attention to the arrangement, without having to worry about the writing.

So if the attention right now is on the lyrics, I'd suggest setting everything else aside and posting only the lyrics. It'll be easier for others to evaluate, and when you're 100% happy with them, you can resume working on the instrumental arrangement.

 

[David Cuny]

Just a suggestion, @David Cuny... since it seems like the last couple of revisions have been primarily focused on the lyrics, it would be easier to evaluate changes if you simply posted a new version of the lyrics.

Yes and no.

Because it's an audio medium, some questions are Are the lyrics understandable and Do the lyrics flow?

Reading the lyrics isn't how the song will be experienced, so I've avoided it to that point. Although the song isn't at the final mix, it should be pretty close to where the final mix will be, in terms of vocals.

That was the thinking behind not posting the lyrics, anyway.

The lyrics are at the bottom of this post.

I've also updated the song to only have bass and guitar.

Having to listen to the entire song again to assess lyrical rewrites is, how shall I say... rather unwieldy, especially given your disclaimer: "The mix is a mess, and the instrumental parts aren't in place yet. Some phrasing still needs work and some words are mushy."

I should have explained that better. I'm not sure if the words I'm hearing are the same ones you have issues with. I'll post the lyrics, I just wanted to explain what I was trying to accomplish by making you suffer through the song again.

So every time I listen to the song, all I see in my head is that android, which definitely kills the Appalachian vibe for me )

I did have a swing at singing it myself and using Vocoflex, but that was laughably awful.

I've changed the vocalist to one with less of a Swedish accent. I was so heads-down with the lyrics that I forgot I had other singers.

Given that you're still rewriting the lyrics, the instrumental arrangement and the mix shouldn't even be a consideration. Once the writing is finished, you can devote your full attention to the production knowing you have a solid song in hand.

I'd been hoping that this would be the final rewrite, although I suspect that's highly unlikely.

IMHO, one of the most significant downsides of the DAW era, is that DAWs have conflated the singular tasks of writing, arranging, and mixing - each of which, is a distinct discipline that deserves its own focused effort. Back before DAWs, we'd write a song at a piano or guitar, then arrange it with our bandmates or a producer, and only then, actually record and mix it. There were exceptions of course, but generally, this was the workflow for most songwriters, especially the pros.

The version I posted has very little arrangement. The version I've just uploaded has even less.

So if the attention right now is on the lyrics, I'd suggest setting everything else aside and posting only the lyrics. It'll be easier for others to evaluate, and when you're 100% happy with them, you can resume working on the instrumental arrangement.

Here you go. Have at it.

[verse 1]
my daddy worked these appalachian mines
just like his daddy did before

but now the mines are empty
and they've boarded up the stores
nobody's working anymore

they've long since gone away
down that long road

[verse 2]
i never dreamed i'd be leaving my old home
but i can't sit around waiting to die

all these damned vultures stripped us to the bone
bought up the land and drank it dry

carrying the loads of coal
down that long road

[verse 3]
coal was king for cheap electric power
making northern generators turn

but fracking gas is cheaper and they don't care what they burn
what matters is financial return

depreciate and let it go
what was owed

[instrumental]

[verse 4]
cold september woke me from my sleep
looking around my lover's gone

out of work tired of hanging on
he slipped away first light of dawn

leaving me along
he's down that long road

[verse 5]
i feel the hot tears rolling down my cheek
nobody's left except for me

i hear the raven calling from the tree
he knows that i'll be next to leave

it's time for me to go
down that long road

 

[Nekujak]

Because it's an audio medium, some questions are Are the lyrics understandable and Do the lyrics flow?

Reading the lyrics isn't how the song will be experienced, so I've avoided it to that point. Although the song isn't at the final mix, it should be pretty close to where the final mix will be, in terms of vocals.

I agree that a song is experienced as audio, but since it seems like these lyrics are still in the writing/re-writing stage, it's useful to evaluate them as words on a page to ensure the flow of the narrative, assess overall word choices, check rhyming patterns, count syllables, etc. And since you've opened up this song for external input, seeing the lyrics makes it much easier to provide feedback.

In all my experience writing with collaborators, pitching songs to publishers, participating in songwriting competitions, and evaluating songs for production purposes, lyric sheets always play a vital role even though the final "product" is audio.

Also nowadays, lyric videos are very common because it's often difficult to pick up every nuance of a lyric in just one or two listens. I always appreciate lyric videos because I get so much more out of the listening experience.

I should have explained that better. I'm not sure if the words I'm hearing are the same ones you have issues with.

I don't recall having issues with specific words. I was primarily concerned with the overall flow of the narrative, and the fact that I had trouble understanding some of the words. The former is definitely something that can be evaluated by reading a lyric sheet, and the latter is more of a performance or mixing issue that can be addressed once the song is written.

The lyrics are at the bottom of this post.

Much appreciated.

I'd been hoping that this would be the final rewrite, although I suspect that's highly unlikely.

Perhaps I misunderstood the intent of this thread, which I thought was to explore the possibilities of group evaluation and feedback on the progressive stages of your song - sort of a psuedo-collaboration. But if you are considering this the final version of the lyrics and the writing is done, then yes, we should move on and advance the discussion to the performance and instrumental arrangement.

Here you go. Have at it.

I am needed elsewhere right now, but will digest the lyrics later today or this weekend.

 

[David Cuny]

In all my experience writing with collaborators, pitching songs to publishers, participating in songwriting competitions, and evaluating songs for production purposes, lyric sheets always play a vital role even though the final "product" is audio.

Good to know.

Perhaps I misunderstood the intent of this thread, which I thought was to explore the possibilities of group evaluation and feedback on the progressive stages of your song - sort of a psuedo-collaboration. But if you are considering this the final version of the lyrics and the writing is done, then yes, we should move on and advance the discussion to the performance and instrumental arrangement.

No, I'm just being silly, that's all.

As in "Im sure their prefect this time!"

I am needed elsewhere right now, but will digest the lyrics later today or this weekend.

No rush, thanks!

 

[Louie]

The song is sticking in my head now. It sounds like you changed the key, was it always in d minor?

Man, I really miss the boom and chop. And I wish you would include fiddle back in at some point, it adds a darkness and soul to the song that matches the theme IMHO.

I’ll mostly steer clear of the lyrics, except to say I think they are fine. This might be nitpicking, but there is just one word that I would reconsider—“depreciate". That is a business/accounting word, and wouldn’t likely be used by someone while telling the story, and also, might sound to some listeners as “appreciate” which could confuse them. Also, the world Raven is only used once. I’d say that is purely an artistic choice of whether to include it more often to support the theme, or save it for the last verse. I could be convinced either way.

 

[David Cuny]

The song is sticking in my head now. It sounds like you changed the key, was it always in d minor?

I didn't change the key. But I suspect the guitar makes it sound lower.

Man, I really miss the boom and chop. And I wish you would include fiddle back in at some point, it adds a darkness and soul to the song that matches the theme IMHO.

It'll be back.

I’ll mostly steer clear of the lyrics, except to say I think they are fine. This might be nitpicking, but there is just one word that I would reconsider—“depreciate".

Nitpicking is good! The phrase "write off the loss" is probably better, if I'm going that route. I was just stuck for how to bring in "the long road", so tried something different.

If you were really going to nitpick, you'd mention that Pa is more specific to the region than Daddy.

Also, the world Raven is only used once. I’d say that is purely an artistic choice of whether to include it more often to support the theme, or save it for the last verse. I could be convinced either way.

It seems the rewrite has slowly moved the poor raven to a mere shadow of himself.

In order to put him back in, I'd have to add another verse at the beginning. But I don't think that would really add much to the story, so that's not likely to happen.

Thanks for commenting!

 

[Nekujak]

I really like the flow and progression of the narrative now, and with the additional verses, the song feels more substantial and creates a world that's tangible and real. You've come a long way from where the song started and should be congratulated for taking the bull by the horns and doing the necessary work to bring the lyrics to this point.

If commenting on music in a forum made me feel uncomfortable, commenting on lyrics makes me squirm 100 times more . Lyrics are just too important and too personal. I know I already weighed in on aspects of the lyrics previously, but this seems more focused now, and I don't feel it's my place to dissect and tear apart someone's hard work and creativity. But since you asked, I'll try to proceed with caution.

Some of my comments will no doubt seem ultra nitpicky, and quite frankly, an audience probably wouldn't care or even notice one way or another. But these are the kinds of detailed discussions I've experienced in writing sessions, with ideas and opinions bounced back and forth until a workable solution is hammered out. Doing this in a forum isn't ideal, but hopefully we can make the best of it.

Okay, enough preamble. Let's dive in...

Verse 1

• I would swap "these" in the 1st line with "the" in the 3rd line. No compelling reason, I just think it would sound better and would somehow make slightly better sense. (Before you roll your eyes and report this post as abuse, please know this is my most nitpickiest and least significant comment. Things should get better from here...)

"they've long since gone away"

• This line creates a logical thorn in my side in relation to the rest of the song. If everyone left town so long ago, why is the singer still living here? What kept her here so long after the town was abandoned? It seems to me, the two events (town being abandoned and singer needing to leave), should be brought closer together on the timeline. This would also be consistent with the events in the final two verses, which seem to occur shortly after everything shuts down. Otherwise, I'm left with questions about what's she still doing here, how did she survive, was she alone, etc... which then becomes more interesting to me than the song's actual story.

Verse 2
"all these damned vultures stripped us to the bone"

• I would change "these" to "those", otherwise it sounds like the vultures are still around, and "those" also makes them more impersonal.
• The use of "damned" is okay, but it might be fun to hear a more idiomatic term here.

"bought up the land and drank it dry"

• "drank" seems a little too polite. This verse is expressing bitterness and anger, so a stronger term, such as "bled," seems more fitting to me.

Verse 3

• Tonally, some of the language in this verse seems inconsistent with that of a plainspoken mountain woman. We went from "damned vultures" and "drinking" (or bleeding) the land dry, to a more textbook-style narrative in this verse. At the very least, I would throw in some more condescending pronouns - for example: "coal was king for THEIR cheap electric power". Using "those", "their" and "them" helps maintain the bitter tone established in the preceding verses, and naturally makes the industrialists and rich folk the opposition. If you're really feeling intrepid, you could completely rewrite parts of this verse to make it even more biting and angry.
• "cheap" is used in the 1st line and "cheaper" in the 3rd line. I'd change one of them.

"but fracking gas is cheaper and they don't care what they burn"

• This line confused me because fracking utilizes water, not fire. So I'm guessing "burn" is being used figuratively here, but it's a bit problematic because burning is the exact opposite of fracking, so upon hearing this my brain stops and goes, "Huh?" I actually like the flow of the line, and there's nothing intrinsically wrong with using "burn", it's just unfortunate that it's paired with fracking. But actually, I think a casual listener wouldn't even notice - so don't give my comment too much credence.

"depreciate and let it go"

• Agree with @Louie , "depricate" is a technical/financial term that seems tonally out of place.

Verse 4
"cold september woke me from my sleep"

• This is a great line that worked really well as the song's opening, but here in the middle of the narrative, it feels a bit disconnected from everything that came before it. Perhaps if it were established in an earlier verse that summer is coming to an end, or fall is approaching, then this line would naturally fall into place (no pun intended).

Verse 5
"i feel the hot tears rolling down my cheek"

• "hot" is not my favoriate adjective here. It reminds of "hot mess" or "hot tea". Since we just established it's a cold September, in my mind, I see "hot tears" burning the singer's skin and causing steam to rise from her face, and suddenly I'm in a horror film

Alright, like I said at the beginning, in a typical writing session, ideas and opinions get kicked around interactively. But in a forum, it just feels like I'm on a podium listening to myself talk. So take my comments as nothing more than my personal preferences, and definitely don't feel obligated to consider, adopt, or even respond to any of them.

Good luck!