Facebook ad

[Mike Greene]

To get eyeballs on the forum, we've had an announcement on VI-C, as well as a banner ad for a week. There was an initial rush of activity, but now, a little over a month after launch, it's dying down a bit, which is worrying. I have a Stacounter on the site and we can see a definite decline:



Next week, I'll send out a VI-C newsletter mentioning this forum, which should help, but that will pretty much exhaust the VI-C tricks. I'm optimistic it will deliver a bump, but I don't think it will put us into self-sustain territory.

What I don't want to do is for all of us to feel guilted to "try harder" and post more than what we would normally want to post. That's what "The Soundboard" keeps doing, and it never works. (They'll get a short bump, then it's back to being dead. "Let's all post more!" is work, and it gets old. A forum needs to be fun, not a mission.)

So I'm thinking about Facebook ads. I have a lot of experience with those with Realitone, so I think I can get some results from them. Fairly cheaply, too, since it's a lot easier to "sell" something that's free. Here's my idea:

We target a specific thread that has a hook to it. For instance, I have an idea for a "Why this lyric works" thread for the Goo Goo Dolls song "Iris." It makes for an easy graphic, and Goo Goo Dolls are from an era and genre that fits the forum. So rather than "Hey! There's a new songwriter forum!", I'd advertise a specific topic that has a little meat to it. The ad would start the same day the topic starts, and just run a few days.

We can do a few of these, by the way, so maybe it's Goo Goo Dolls one week, then some prog rock or polka topic the next week. (If you're thinking of posting a thread that would also make for a decent ad, let me know ahead of time and we can coordinate.) Or maybe we do want a "Hey! There's a new songwriter forum!" ad. I'm open on all of this.

We can "target" songwriters, where the ad supposedly only gets seen by people who list their occupation or hobbies as songwriter. ("Producer" is more difficult. And risky.) The targeting works pretty well. Not great, but pretty well. We'll definitely get a few views from non-songwriters, but it's not like they're going to join and post "Goo Goo Dolls suck!", so I don't think there's much downside to that.

I'm thinking of setting the age cutoff at 35 and above. The ad would only show in English speaking countries. At least for now, until we find out whether there are downsides to doing this.

So that's the idea. Let me know if you have suggestions, or if I should rethink this, or not do it at all.

Also, the Facebook page is here. There's nothing there, and as with VI-C's Facebook page, it will likely remain dead, but if you're on Facebook, it might not hurt to click Follow. I'm not sure if there's any benefit to that, but if it turns out there is, it could be good to have a head start.

 

[Tom Spell]

Two thoughts for brainstorming:

1. If you create the ads via Meta Ads Manager you could consider activating Instagram ads as well to increase reach. As far as I know „Instagram Feed“ and „Instagram Explorer“ as well as „Instagram Stories“ and „Instagram Reels“ are good choices to place the ads.

2. If the target audience gets too small by just using „songwriter“ you could use other keywords as interest categories from the topic list of the forum (like music recording, mixing, mastering, etc.). Maybe „DIY musician“ would work as well.

 

[Nekujak]

Here's my idea:

We target a specific thread that has a hook to it. For instance, I have an idea for a "Why this lyric works" thread for the Goo Goo Dolls song "Iris." It makes for an easy graphic, and Goo Goo Dolls are from an era and genre that fits the forum. So rather than "Hey! There's a new songwriter forum!", I'd advertise a specific topic that has a little meat to it. The ad would start the same day the topic starts, and just run a few days.

I think this is a really brilliant approach that has a good chance of, at least initially, engaging new folks.

As someone who is the target audience (songwriter/musician), I've noticed that my own interest in participation on SP has died down considerably after the first couple of weeks, primarily because I don't really have much more to say.

I could make additional "What makes this song great" posts, and I probably will, but I don't want that to be my raison detre for being here.

As we all know, the primary fuel that keeps the motor humming on VI-C is sample library talk. Yes, there are composition discussions, music critiques, and general industry talk, but for every one of those threads there are a dozen sample library threads (not an official statistic, just a general impression).

Strip away the gear talk, and you'll start to hear crickets chirping.

I actually really appreciate that SP isn't inundated with gear talk, but it begs the question: are there enough songwriter-related topics to generate lively discussions and active participation? So far, the answer to that for me has been "no". I want it to be "yes", but I simply can't find enough interesting or enlightening things to say about songwriting beyond what I've already posted.

So hopefully, getting lots of new blood in here will generate more posts that foster lively discussion. But my fear is that the low activity levels seen in other songwriting forums is in fact a byproduct of the subject itself. There simply may not be that much to say about songwriting.

Songwriters generally know their craft and don't obsessively research sample libraries and plugins. So what's left to talk about?

(I'm not being negative - just voicing concerns. I genuinely want to see this forum succeed.)

 

[Louie]

Just a suggestion on revising the target age lower, say to mid-twenties?

The musicians' I’ve worked with or studied with over the years, both male and female, seemed to ramp up their music careers after high school and/or college, then slowed way down after starting families. So might be missing that age bracket where people are chasing their dreams and going all out on their music careers before settling down.

(a topic for a few songs!)

 

[proggermusic]

A Facebook ad could be a good way to get some older folks in, from "elder millennials" through gen X (and even some Boomers). But people in their twenties and early thirties are largely off Facebook entirely at this point, and YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok are where they're poking around. I wouldn't advise a TikTok ad unless things calm down a bit about that, but Instagram, in particular, is big for musicians. YouTube/Google ads are always worth investigating too, but I know they can be tricky (and a potential bottomless pit).

 

[Bee_Abney]

Perhaps an alluring name for a thread could help. 'The art of songwriting' could lead to some reflections that could generate interest. Or something about getting noticed: 'How to whore your product' might not be the best name, though... But maybe 'What are people listening to?' or, 'Building an audience'.

I'm not particularly interested in building an audience myself; but, at some point, I will be interested in reaching anyone, whoever, might be interested, etc.

I suppose my thoughts here can be reduced to 'writing good stuff that people listen to'. I'm guessing that a lot of producers and songwriters want to know what 'works' in a commercial sense, whilst telling themselves that they are thinking artistically.

I think that the original purpose of the forum is to address procedural and technical questions, including gear/software, for people who more interested in music that is at least song-like. Lots of people must have such questions. But that doesn't mean that those questions are the top of their search history. They may be focused on following interesting developments in popular music, or on very commercially-focused issues.

 

[proggermusic]

Audience development is something my wife used to do for a pretty well-known media publication, and I started applying that mindset to my own music a few years ago... it's a useful framework for me. I'm not trying to reach the masses, I'm trying to find the kinds of like-minded weirdos who would like the weird stuff I like to make. Marketing as a concept has always turned me off for some reason, probably because I don't like the feeling of being marketed to. Audience development is essentially the same thing but feels more... I don't know... Genuine, I guess, and it's been helpful to me conceptually. Quality and sustainability over rapid and (falsely, but seemingly) perpetual growth.

 

[PaulieDC]

Mike, I know you're going to hate this suggestion, but in the songwriter producer world that I was in for 3 years prior to the film scoring bug biting me in the bum, production with engineering plugins is the obsessive part, not sample libraries of course. And folks really want to buy/sell/trade all the time which is a LOT easier with EQs and Compressors, so maybe ponder that 11-letter word you hate: Classifieds

:::ducking out of the way of Mike's 42 oz Dick Allen bat:::

Just one more idea to get traffic.

 

[proggermusic]

Yeah, sadly... The things that bring people to music/musician forums (and what brought me to music forums for the first time ages ago) are, nearly always, questions about "how do I spend my money the most wisely?". Which is understandable, particularly for musicians... Most of us (especially the full-timers) aren't rolling in money for most of our professional lives.

 

[Mike Greene]

In theory, the first Facebook ad is now live, although it's a generic "Come visit our new forum!" ad. I figured I'd need to work out some kinks first, so it was good I did it this way, since this took me three tries to finally get it right. (I deleted the first two, which had link errors, plus I chose a wrong action button for the first one. Kinda pathetic, really, since this isn't my first go-round with Facebook ads.

I chose ages 30 and up for this one, with the "Interests" all being songwriter related. I might add production in the next one, although that's trickier. It's not Instagram-eligible yet, so if's FaceBook-only.

We'll see how well it works, then go to the original plan (ads pointed to specific topics) after we work out the kinks with this one.

To anyone visiting from the ad ... welcome! Feel free to chime in with your own thoughts about this.

 

[creativeforge]

In theory, the first Facebook ad is now live, although it's a generic "Come visit our new forum!" ad. I figured I'd need to work out some kinks first, so it was good I did it this way, since this took me three tries to finally get it right. (I deleted the first two, which had link errors, plus I chose a wrong action button for the first one. Kinda pathetic, really, since this isn't my first go-round with Facebook ads.

I chose ages 30 and up for this one, with the "Interests" all being songwriter related. I might add production in the next one, although that's trickier. It's not Instagram-eligible yet, so if's FaceBook-only.

We'll see how well it works, then go to the original plan (ads pointed to specific topics) after we work out the kinks with this one.

To anyone visiting from the ad ... welcome! Feel free to chime in with your own thoughts about this.

A few well produced short video clips of songwriting, recording, production, performance or audition moments could tease people out? Facebook, TikTok, Instagram...

 

[proggermusic]

I wonder if it would cause some kind of space-time-folding black hole situation, breaking physics as we know it, if you were to take out an ad for this forum on Gearspace...

...Or maybe even SoundOnSound. The forum over there really only has the benefit of occasional posts by Hugh Robjohns or Sam Inglis, both of whom are really nice writers and knowledgeable about studio tech. But the UI is so primitive that I almost approve of it!

 

[Mike Greene]

Sooo ... I guess my concern that a FaceBook might bring in too many people was a bit unfounded. At $15/day since Wednesday, we have just two new members, and I don't know that either one came here through FaceBook.

It's a mediocre and generic ad, mind you, and was mostly just meant to get my advertising feet wet, since FaceBook has all sorts of quirks and stuff for new "companies." (Realitone has been doing it a while, so those ads breeze through and FaceBook already knows who to show them to. S&P is new, though, so I needed a dummy test ad.)

I'll let this one run its 1-week course. Hopefully the next one, that targets a specific post, will work better. The forum is only a month and a half old and doing pretty well, considering, so we can take it slow.

 

[Polkasound]

I think we all knew the forum would start slow. (Is there really any other way for one to start? People prefer to go to where the action already is.) I believe this forum will become prominent like VI-Control, but it will take a few years to get there.

I kinda get the feeling that offering to help pay you for increased advertising would be like a kid breaking open his piggy bank to donate $2.75 to help pay for his cat's $3,000 medical procedure, but I really believe in the future of this forum. I very appreciative of you getting it going and want to help out in any way I can. Thank you, Mike!

 

[Rob1e72]

I guess if anything it is a testament to how good vi control is. I will try and be more active here and mention more to people I know. I really like the idea of this forum so will do what I can to promote via word of mouth.

 

[proggermusic]

I like the concept of the forum too, and I'm curious to see how it goes, but if it ends up not making sense for Mike to keep it going... Like a few of us mentioned on the VIC thread, these topics could really fit in a subforum there too. I personally won't mind either way!

 

[Mike Greene]

It costs me almost nothing to keep the site up and running, so no worries about the plug getting pulled. I'm thinking the same as PolkaSound, that this will probably take a year or two, so there's no rush.

I'll still try a couple more FaceBook ads, though, since I can't help myself, but even if those don't work any better then the first one, we're still doing fine organically.

 

[Mike Greene]

If nothing else, I'm learning more about these Facebook ads. I made a new one on Saturday for the "How do you know when a song is finished?" thread, since I figured that's a topic that grabs people's attention. And apparently it is! The Facebook thread already has 75 comments on it in just three days.

Even though the post and image link to the thread, though, we haven't seen that action here. According to my Ads Manager page, we've gotten 219 visits, so people are visiting, but my guess is most people don't want to actually sign up for a new site unless there's a really good reason for it. (I certainly don't.) So it's easier to just comment on the Facebook page since they're already there.

So I'm thinking the next ad should be about something more specific where you need to visit the forum. For instance, the breakdown of the Goo Goo Dolls song I was talking about doing in Post 1 of this thread. The Facebook post would say something like, "Iris by the Goo Goo Dolls. Great lyric. But it doesn't mean what you think it does." Unlike "How to know when a song is finished," people would actually need to visit this site before commenting.

Brilliant plan, right? Yeah, yeah, I know ... it probably won't work, either. It's fun, though. As I've said on VI-C about running Realitone, part of the fun is figuring out what works and what doesn't.

 

[Bee_Abney]

If nothing else, I'm learning more about these Facebook ads. I made a new one on Saturday for the "How do you know when a song is finished?" thread, since I figured that's a topic that grabs people's attention. And apparently it is! The Facebook thread already has 75 comments on it in just three days.

Even though the post and image link to the thread, though, we haven't seen that action here. According to my Ads Manager page, we've gotten 219 visits, so people are visiting, but my guess is most people don't want to actually sign up for a new site unless there's a really good reason for it. (I certainly don't.) So it's easier to just comment on the Facebook page since they're already there.

So I'm thinking the next ad should be about something more specific where you need to visit the forum. For instance, the breakdown of the Goo Goo Dolls song I was talking about doing in Post 1 of this thread. The Facebook post would say something like, "Iris by the Goo Goo Dolls. Great lyric. But it doesn't mean what you think it does." Unlike "How to know when a song is finished," people would actually need to visit this site before commenting.

Brilliant plan, right? Yeah, yeah, I know ... it probably won't work, either. It's fun, though. As I've said on VI-C about running Realitone, part of the fun is figuring out what works and what doesn't.

I have no idea if it will work; but I do know that it wouldn't work on me. But I'm old, bitter, and short of time. Maybe you'll catch some younger fish, though!

 

[kgdrum]

I have no idea if it will work; but I do know that it wouldn't work on me. But I'm old, bitter, and short of time. Maybe you'll catch some younger fish, though!

Younger fish don’t generally swim with Facebook.
Bitter old folks with exceptional grammar are the target audience for Facebook.